Skam España

[Zathras]

Talk about the Skam España remake here.

[Zathras]

Continuing the discussion from the other thread...

I don’t know enough about what’s been said publicly regarding the direction of the show. I share justinate’s fear that Lucas (is that the name?) won’t get a season of his own. While I had problems with some aspects of the original Norwegian version, I was glad to be able to see a gay male romance on screen. It had its problems but it was generally positive representation nonetheless. So I don't like the idea that the Spanish remake may not include a comparable season and I don't blame anyone for being concerned.

I rarely say "it will never happen" so I'd like to give the show-runners the benefit of the doubt. Until the show goes off the air, I'd like to think there's always a chance it could happen.

[morningsun7]

There have been loads of talks about representation and how lesbian and bi characters are stealing the light, being represented more than gay characters, and now gay boys barely have any representation.

I looked into Glaad's Where We Are On TV Report from 2018 (alas I have no knownledge of such reports for other countries, but we can agree that nearly the whole world has access to US tv shows while this board is probably one of my biggest source for representation outside of my own country and the US).

Basically, here are the numbers for LGBTQ characters on US television/cable/streaming:

broadcast:
40 gay / 21 lesbian / 22 bi / 1 straight / 2 undetermined

cable:
72 gay / 47 lesbian / 48 bi / 1 asexual / 3 straight / 3 undetermined

streaming:
17 gay / 25 lesbian / 23 bi / 4 straight / 1 asexual / 1 undetermined

total:
129 gay / 93 lesbian / 93 bi / 2 asexual / 8 straight / 6 undetermined

Not all of those characters are well written or are part of good, positive representation but it still goes to show that there are more gay characters on TV right now than there are lesbian/bi characters.
Which is pretty much the same with Skam, out of 6 shows, 3 of them have the gay story : Italy, Germany, France(maybe 4, I don't know about Belgium). (it's still gay even if one of the character is trans, and i do agree for once changing one straight character to a queer one would be best than this)

What I'm seeing with Skam is pretty much the same as with the rest of the industry, it's not lesbians and bi people stealing the light, they're just finally getting characters. So yeah it means instead of getting 6 love story that are basically the same, you're getting 3. It means you're still getting 3 times the same story when lesbians and bi people weren't even at the heart of the original and don't get much more light in the remakes (France's remake had some good nice scenes, and Even is bi, but he's still not at the heart of the stories being told, so yeah it is representation but not as much as he had been at the heart of the season).

[jjose712]

The problem is never that they add a lesbian or a trans character, the problem is they were originally gay male characters. So they basically think it's perfectly ok change a gay character for a lesbian, when they could add a new character or change a straight one.

Anyway the discussion about Skam España has more to do with the fact that some people think Lucas won't have his own season

[justinate]

Apr 5, 2019 7:46:20 GMT -5 morningsun7 said:

There have been loads of talks about representation and how lesbian and bi characters are stealing the light, being represented more than gay characters, and now gay boys barely have any representation.

I looked into Glaad's Where We Are On TV Report from 2018 (alas I have no knownledge of such reports for other countries, but we can agree that nearly the whole world has access to US tv shows while this board is probably one of my biggest source for representation outside of my own country and the US).

Basically, here are the numbers for LGBTQ characters on US television/cable/streaming:

broadcast:
40 gay / 21 lesbian / 22 bi / 1 straight / 2 undetermined

cable:
72 gay / 47 lesbian / 48 bi / 1 asexual / 3 straight / 3 undetermined

streaming:
17 gay / 25 lesbian / 23 bi / 4 straight / 1 asexual / 1 undetermined

total:
129 gay / 93 lesbian / 93 bi / 2 asexual / 8 straight / 6 undetermined

Not all of those characters are well written or are part of good, positive representation but it still goes to show that there are more gay characters on TV right now than there are lesbian/bi characters.
Which is pretty much the same with Skam, out of 6 shows, 3 of them have the gay story : Italy, Germany, France(maybe 4, I don't know about Belgium). (it's still gay even if one of the character is trans, and i do agree for once changing one straight character to a queer one would be best than this)

What I'm seeing with Skam is pretty much the same as with the rest of the industry, it's not lesbians and bi people stealing the light, they're just finally getting characters. So yeah it means instead of getting 6 love story that are basically the same, you're getting 3. It means you're still getting 3 times the same story when lesbians and bi people weren't even at the heart of the original and don't get much more light in the remakes (France's remake had some good nice scenes, and Even is bi, but he's still not at the heart of the stories being told, so yeah it is representation but not as much as he had been at the heart of the season).

I'm not sure what the relevance is of presenting US statistics in the Skam Espana thread. If we're talking about US TV, it's worth noting that lesbian/bi women predate any meaningful gay/bi male representation. In case you weren't aware, Ellen DeGeneres headed her own series TWO DECADES before US network TV produced a gay male-led show: Alan Cumming's Instinct. If anyone needs to play "catch-up" in this respect, it's gay men.

That's the key difference between quantity and quality in representation. Ten shows can have gay men standing around in the background without a story - much less a love life - and collective airtime of 20 minutes, but it would be worth far less than one show where the principal protagonist's lesbian love story is front and center with more than an hour of airtime devoted to it across a season.

The GLAAD numbers don't tell the true story (and I fear it is intentionally misleading). They don't tell us whether gay men's stories are being told or simply background noise. The state of this discussion board is probably a more accurate barometer. Do you think we have 129 threads for US gay characters started/active in the last year? I doubt we even have 129 threads across all countries.

That's why it's so important that we fight for existing gay character's stories to be told - not downgraded or outright erased - and hold to account showrunners who commit the latter. Skam is one of the VERY, VERY FEW shows where a gay boy is actually the principal protagonist (at least for one season) - and people want to take that away from us. Can you understand how it feels to gay boys and men who are fans of Skam, to be robbed even of this? At a time when the wider world is already shunting gay men's stories to the peripheries? To be told - your story doesn't matter, it's secondary, it's played out, it can be erased? Really? Is this the message we want to send gay youth? No other minority would welcome erasure or have other people actively advocate for it. Can you imagine the outrage if they were to replace the Muslim character in one of the Skam remakes? After all, there are plenty of religious minorities and immigrant communities that could be represented instead. Why don't we ever see that? Why don't we see the date-rape storyline of season 2 handed to a boy? Why is it ONLY the gay boy whose story is not worth telling?

[morningsun7]

Apr 6, 2019 22:22:44 GMT -5 justinate said:

Apr 5, 2019 7:46:20 GMT -5 morningsun7 said:

I looked into Glaad's Where We Are On TV Report from 2018 (alas I have no knownledge of such reports for other countries, but we can agree that nearly the whole world has access to US tv shows while this board is probably one of my biggest source for representation outside of my own country and the US).

total:
129 gay / 93 lesbian / 93 bi / 2 asexual / 8 straight / 6 undetermined

Not all of those characters are well written or are part of good, positive representation but it still goes to show that there are more gay characters on TV right now than there are lesbian/bi characters.
Which is pretty much the same with Skam, out of 6 shows, 3 of them have the gay story : Italy, Germany, France(maybe 4, I don't know about Belgium). (it's still gay even if one of the character is trans, and i do agree for once changing one straight character to a queer one would be best than this)

What I'm seeing with Skam is pretty much the same as with the rest of the industry, it's not lesbians and bi people stealing the light, they're just finally getting characters. So yeah it means instead of getting 6 love story that are basically the same, you're getting 3. It means you're still getting 3 times the same story when lesbians and bi people weren't even at the heart of the original and don't get much more light in the remakes (France's remake had some good nice scenes, and Even is bi, but he's still not at the heart of the stories being told, so yeah it is representation but not as much as he had been at the heart of the season).

I'm not sure what the relevance is of presenting US statistics in the Skam Espana thread. If we're talking about US TV, it's worth noting that lesbian/bi women predate any meaningful gay/bi male representation. In case you weren't aware, Ellen DeGeneres headed her own series TWO DECADES before US network TV produced a gay male-led show: Alan Cumming's Instinct. If anyone needs to play "catch-up" in this respect, it's gay men.

That's the key difference between quantity and quality in representation. Ten shows can have gay men standing around in the background without a story - much less a love life - and collective airtime of 20 minutes, but it would be worth far less than one show where the principal protagonist's lesbian love story is front and center with more than an hour of airtime devoted to it across a season.

The GLAAD numbers don't tell the true story (and I fear it is intentionally misleading). They don't tell us whether gay men's stories are being told or simply background noise. The state of this discussion board is probably a more accurate barometer. Do you think we have 129 threads for US gay characters started/active in the last year? I doubt we even have 129 threads across all countries.

That's why it's so important that we fight for existing gay character's stories to be told - not downgraded or outright erased - and hold to account showrunners who commit the latter. Skam is one of the VERY, VERY FEW shows where a gay boy is actually the principal protagonist (at least for one season) - and people want to take that away from us. Can you understand how it feels to gay boys and men who are fans of Skam, to be robbed even of this? At a time when the wider world is already shunting gay men's stories to the peripheries? To be told - your story doesn't matter, it's secondary, it's played out, it can be erased? Really? Is this the message we want to send gay youth? No other minority would welcome erasure or have other people actively advocate for it. Can you imagine the outrage if they were to replace the Muslim character in one of the Skam remakes? After all, there are plenty of religious minorities and immigrant communities that could be represented instead. Why don't we ever see that? Why don't we see the date-rape storyline of season 2 handed to a boy? Why is it ONLY the gay boy whose story is not worth telling?

I used Glaad's report because I have no knowledge of any other organisation doing the same work (I know for France it might be done at some point, but it's still not). I pointed out US shows are far more accessible which is the reason why Glaad's report is still relevant.

As for Ellen, she may have had that show but I would love to know what other show was lead by a woman, directed by a woman, and about being a lesbian. I do not have an excellent knowledge of US television but I haven't heard of such a show (beside the L Word which was years later, and I still can't find a show like this one). (and I don't think such a show exists in France either...)

I do believe there were other shows before Alan Cumming's Instinct, but again, I'm no US tv shows expert, it's only fragments of memories that come to mind and they're not all from the US : Modern Family, The New Normal, Queer as Folks, Six Feet Under, I'm thinking of a show about young gay men and I think it's called Noah's Arc, oh and obviously Torchwood how could i forget this one (the Doctor is definitely not straight and that has been said several times since it restarted in 2005, but she's not really human, he's more pan than anything, and their relationships aren't the core of the story).

I do agree representation isn't always good and can you believe, Glaad has a report about that too ! You just gotta head over to their website.

I do know what it means, to be erased, to be told my story doesn't matter. I actually know that very well as I have been talking and working with some writers. Being told that to my face has a very.... not so nice feel to it. But I also have been told that through my very own screen, and it doesn't feel much better. I think we all know what it means, I mean we all are here for queer reasons after all.

Giving representation to a part of the LGBTQ+ community does not mean erasure of gay men, is what I simply tried to show you. Gay characters still exists. That does not mean that they are great representation (as i also stated above). Still, I think there are some great shows out there for young gay men. For example, Netflix's Champions. Or Netflix's Rita (which has been remade in France as well, and in other countries). Still on netflix: Sex Education. This Close is pretty nice too altho it's not about a gay boy but an adult gay guy, it's still important representation. Altho I did not finish Step Up : High Water, I liked Tal's character. I just thought of Riverdale. I personally don't like the show, but still, there are young gay characters in it. I believe there are some in 13 Reasons Why as well. I think Dear White People has some too, I haven't finished the show so I wouldn't know about how good they are. There's the show Degrassi, I only watched the later seasons but I think there were some in the earlier ones as well. I know all of those shows don't have perfect representation, and they're not a remake of Skam, but they still do exist, and they're pretty diverse in terms of genre for young men to find one they do like and enjoy watching. Gay characters may not be the leads, but they're most often part of the core ensemble cast, which is pretty big (I've realised with that list that shows seem to rarely focus on one single character anyway).

And maybe there weren't 129 new threads this year on this forum but consider this: we're not watching all of television, and if we are, we might not be sharing all of it. It takes a tremendous amount of time and I am eternally grateful for everyone who do share the show they find info about, take the time to find and share the videos, the interviews, the air date, etc.

I am going to repeat myself but out of 6 remakes, 3 have kept the gay storyline. Half of them. Everyone knew who had bought the rights, and although the writers also knew were telling the stories to an audience that may not have watched the original show, I do think it is pretty smart they found a way to make the show different from the other 5 or the original. I do not find smart that they made the characters lesbians or bi, I just think it is pretty smart, if not only just logical not to remake the same stories over and over again. One of the complaints I saw with the french remake, before the third season came out, was that it was too close to the original, from the actors looking alike to the dialogs being pretty similar. and as i mentioned above, lesbian and bi characters weren't at the heart of the original show, it doesn't seem like such a big thing that one remake has a lesbian season. it definitely does not mean "young gay mean shall not have representation" when 3 other remakes have kept the story.

I am not going to discuss religious minorities or immigrant communities 'cause i wonder what communities you mean by that, 'cause like... people of colour aren't all immigrants, so your wording shows pretty much what you think of them... I do think all stories are worth telling, beside the ones of cis straight white men 'cause we've heard loads of those and we have enough.

Also just thought of it but something worth being reminded: Skam is not everything. Skam is one (1) show out of thousands produced each other (good & bad). It is good, it is good to the point it got six remakes. But it's not everything and it cannot represent all of humanity at once (but it is definitely trying though, like Skam Espana not forgetting about lesbians, 'cause wow can you believe, they exist, which reminds me of Queer Eye, that's a pretty good show for young gay men).

Finally something related to that thread: seems like the official youtube channel has started uploading Skam España !! www.youtube.com/user/plus/videos Alas they do not have english subtitles :/

[justinate]

Apr 7, 2019 5:36:26 GMT -5 morningsun7 said:

I used Glaad's report because I have no knowledge of any other organisation doing the same work (I know for France it might be done at some point, but it's still not). I pointed out US shows are far more accessible which is the reason why Glaad's report is still relevant.

As for Ellen, she may have had that show but I would love to know what other show was lead by a woman, directed by a woman, and about being a lesbian. I do not have an excellent knowledge of US television but I haven't heard of such a show (beside the L Word which was years later, and I still can't find a show like this one). (and I don't think such a show exists in France either...)

I do believe there were other shows before Alan Cumming's Instinct, but again, I'm no US tv shows expert, it's only fragments of memories that come to mind and they're not all from the US : Modern Family, The New Normal, Queer as Folks, Six Feet Under, I'm thinking of a show about young gay men and I think it's called Noah's Arc, oh and obviously Torchwood how could i forget this one (the Doctor is definitely not straight and that has been said several times since it restarted in 2005, but she's not really human, he's more pan than anything, and their relationships aren't the core of the story).

I do agree representation isn't always good and can you believe, Glaad has a report about that too ! You just gotta head over to their website.

I do know what it means, to be erased, to be told my story doesn't matter. I actually know that very well as I have been talking and working with some writers. Being told that to my face has a very.... not so nice feel to it. But I also have been told that through my very own screen, and it doesn't feel much better. I think we all know what it means, I mean we all are here for queer reasons after all.

Giving representation to a part of the LGBTQ+ community does not mean erasure of gay men, is what I simply tried to show you. Gay characters still exists. That does not mean that they are great representation (as i also stated above). Still, I think there are some great shows out there for young gay men. For example, Netflix's Champions. Or Netflix's Rita (which has been remade in France as well, and in other countries). Still on netflix: Sex Education. This Close is pretty nice too altho it's not about a gay boy but an adult gay guy, it's still important representation. Altho I did not finish Step Up : High Water, I liked Tal's character. I just thought of Riverdale. I personally don't like the show, but still, there are young gay characters in it. I believe there are some in 13 Reasons Why as well. I think Dear White People has some too, I haven't finished the show so I wouldn't know about how good they are. There's the show Degrassi, I only watched the later seasons but I think there were some in the earlier ones as well. I know all of those shows don't have perfect representation, and they're not a remake of Skam, but they still do exist, and they're pretty diverse in terms of genre for young men to find one they do like and enjoy watching. Gay characters may not be the leads, but they're most often part of the core ensemble cast, which is pretty big (I've realised with that list that shows seem to rarely focus on one single character anyway).

And maybe there weren't 129 new threads this year on this forum but consider this: we're not watching all of television, and if we are, we might not be sharing all of it. It takes a tremendous amount of time and I am eternally grateful for everyone who do share the show they find info about, take the time to find and share the videos, the interviews, the air date, etc.

I am going to repeat myself but out of 6 remakes, 3 have kept the gay storyline. Half of them. Everyone knew who had bought the rights, and although the writers also knew were telling the stories to an audience that may not have watched the original show, I do think it is pretty smart they found a way to make the show different from the other 5 or the original. I do not find smart that they made the characters lesbians or bi, I just think it is pretty smart, if not only just logical not to remake the same stories over and over again. One of the complaints I saw with the french remake, before the third season came out, was that it was too close to the original, from the actors looking alike to the dialogs being pretty similar. and as i mentioned above, lesbian and bi characters weren't at the heart of the original show, it doesn't seem like such a big thing that one remake has a lesbian season. it definitely does not mean "young gay mean shall not have representation" when 3 other remakes have kept the story.

I am not going to discuss religious minorities or immigrant communities 'cause i wonder what communities you mean by that, 'cause like... people of colour aren't all immigrants, so your wording shows pretty much what you think of them... I do think all stories are worth telling, beside the ones of cis straight white men 'cause we've heard loads of those and we have enough.

Also just thought of it but something worth being reminded: Skam is not everything. Skam is one (1) show out of thousands produced each other (good & bad). It is good, it is good to the point it got six remakes. But it's not everything and it cannot represent all of humanity at once (but it is definitely trying though, like Skam Espana not forgetting about lesbians, 'cause wow can you believe, they exist, which reminds me of Queer Eye, that's a pretty good show for young gay men).

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I don't dispute there is a wide slate of gay male representation in US TV shows, but I don't think that any of the major networks have had gay men as their principal protagonists. That's why Instinct was so noteworthy when it debuted last year. Ensemble shows typically have tiers of characters and the gay men aren't normally in the top tier, e.g. Riverdale has Archie/Jughead/Betty/Veronica as top-tier but gay Kevin is very much second- or even third-tier. He gets his own B-story once in every season which is featured for maybe one or two episodes (but even then it's not the major focus of the episode), and his love interest is only ever a guest star, whereas the core 4 tend to date other regular cast members.

I focused on Spanish shows because I feel there is a stronger sense of connection for people to see themselves represented onscreen and hear what's being said in their native/first language rather than having to read subtitles. For the same reason why Skam Austin is perhaps the BIGGEST disappointment to me because I was one of thousands of English-speaking fans who were really hoping we could follow a gay boy's story without having to read the subtitles from Norwegian/Italian/French - but instead what we got was Julie Andem sanctioning gay erasure in favour of a bi girl.

One of the reasons I hate Skam Espana is because they are playing gay fans for idiots, stringing us along, throwing some breadcrumbs (the amateur Youtube video) while literally taking the gay boy's story from original Skam and giving it to a bi girl (again). If that is not erasure/substitution, what is? An injustice is not reduced in severity because 3 of the remakes (in different countries) have done the right thing and kept the original storyline. It remains an injustice. Arguing that the French or Italians are doing justice to gay boys doesn't excuse the Spaniards for appropriating our story and erasing us from it.

I am not sure why you take offence at the immigrant communities comment because that is clearly what they depict Sana as being in the original Skam. What's really offensive is that you unjustifiably seek to imply I'm a bigot when I myself am a POC and the grandson of immigrants. I was just pointing out there are many different minorities - whether ethnic origin, skin colour, religion, etc. - but no one is banging a drum insisting they should replace the Muslim protagonist in any remake. And there would be a lot of outrage if they had tried that, hence they haven't. But gay men are fair game for erasure and we're told to shut up and accept that. And most depressingly, it's the other members of the LGBT+ community who are shouting us down. For shame.

[kevvoi]

New clip from Lucas's channel:

[mizuryuu]

As mentioned in the original thread: I would be happier if they didn't do this whole youtube thing. It feels like they want to keep the focus on the girl squad (which is perfectly fine), but still get the "Evak" fanbase by reproducing a shallow copy of Isak's character on Youtube. Has any of these video had any effect on the main series, or is it as connected as any random fan fic?

At this point, should all the wiki's be updated to say Chris is the Isak character with Lucas R being a brand new character similar to Skam Austin with Shay and Tyler

[justinate]

Much as I want to support the openly gay actor (who seems adorable), I refuse to watch these Youtube clips as a matter of principle. And I urge all other gay fans to join the boycott.

We should - and must - take a firm stance against being treated like second-class (or fifth-class) citizens to whom the show is throwing these (stale) breadcrumbs to tide over the gay boy's story being appropriated for the bi girl.

[jjose712]

There was an article about the lesbian storyline on El País, it was about fanbases of same sex couple, this time focused on lesbian and bisexual females (most part was about two contestants of the last Operación Triunfo who gave a lot of visibility to bisexuality)

[kevvoi]

New clip from Lucas's channel:

[justinate]

I won't watch this on principle, but maybe those who still want to give this show a chance can share how they answered the video's central question. None of the countries seem to do it justice.

[kellerbrady]

May 9, 2019 11:25:47 GMT -5 justinate said:

I won't watch this on principle, but maybe those who still want to give this show a chance can share how they answered the video's central question. None of the countries seem to do it justice.

I think the original did well. Sana says something ignorant, and then has to revaluate after she finds out her someone close to her is gay. She later breaks down to her mom about how she doesn't agree or believe homosexuality is wrong and complains about unfair marriage rules to women. This is very common among anyone with religious or conservative background of any religion.

The way they did in France and Italia was crap. Basically "homosexuality it's wrong, but I don't judge" which is bs and the show tries to sell as an acceptable answer.

The original show acknowledges there's a conflict about their views and doesn't try to dodge it. Then later Sana admits she was wrong and she changes her mind.

The French and Italian's Sana continue believing homosexuality is wrong, but the show comes up with bs excuses to tolerate that.

[kevvoi]

New Lucas clip:

[mizuryuu]

huh, thought they abandoned the youtube thing since they didn't upload a new episode in the longest time.

[justinate]

Frankly they should abandon it, it's an embarrassment to their vision of "equality" and an insult to the gay (male) community to be treated as second- (or third-) class citizens.

[mikacs]

Anyone knows anything about Lucas & Kasim?

[kevvoi]

I haven't seen anything about season 4 yet, The Skam Wiki has Lucas listed in season 4 and a note that some of 4-2 and 4-3 are from his point of view:

skam.fandom.com/wiki/Skam_España#cite_note-25

And I guess the show started airing again earlier this month.

I have no idea who Kasim is. Sorry.

The tumblr's I used to follow haven't been anywhere near as active as Wtfock, Druck, and the rather forlorn discussions of the Dutch Skam that will likely never be on the other tumblr pages.

Movistar is posting clips but without subtitles: www.youtube.com/channel/UCEHD_P5browp_QPhPlbOIbQ

[mikacs]

I've been watching season 4 from here: sites.google.com/view/allofskam/skam-españa

About Kasim:

SPOILER: Click to show

We initially see him as Amira's new love interest, but then we actually find out he's been going out with Lucas

Season 4 has some extra clips about Lucas. I think you must have a premium Movistar+ account to watch them. They're not on the official Youtube channel.

All I could find right now were these (no subs):
S04E03 extra clip 1: streamable.com/17sc0w
S04E03 extra clip 2: streamable.com/bifllb
S04E03 extra clip 3: streamable.com/n1z5s0

Extra clips found on Tumblr: vvirigomez.tumblr.com/

If I find any other relevant extra clip I'll post them here.

[jjose712]

One of the actors is on the new teen tve show HIT.

Nothing gay in the first episode but i'll be surprised if they don't touch the theme

[mikacs]

English subs on the extra clips! They're included in the full episodes: sites.google.com/view/allofskam/skam-españa

[justinate]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see they've integrated the gay couple into the main show - well, extra clips, but still better than the webcam style nonsense they thought compensated for taking away Lucas's season. Would still have preferred Lucas having his own season like in the original and most of the remakes, but it's a sad testament to today's world that we have to consider it a "win" that he even appears in the main show at all! I wonder if this was a last-minute change due to backlash against the gay erasure which the show was perpetrating?

[mizuryuu]

Happy they finally did something with Lucas, but still kind of sad they still basically tuck him away from the rest of the show. I think this is the remake with the least developed boy squad.