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Post by teachgirl on May 4, 2011 23:37:06 GMT -5
For me, the acting trumped any other issues I might have with storyline, direction etc. They deeply moved me today. Both of them. And thank you May and Joanna for allowing me to be so moved.
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Post by jani on May 5, 2011 0:12:51 GMT -5
Jo's performance was pretty much the only thing that pulled in my emotions in this episode.
The dialogue failed.
The plot was flimsy.
Thore was okay, but, some parts made me cringe/laugh out loud so hard! E.g., Christian's face: 1:52-1:57 LMAO! WTF is that? Is Thore trying to give him "loving eyes"? He looks cheesy as hell!!! I felt awkward for Thore at that moment, and gotta admit, I kinda cringed at that acting (as I usually do when watching cheesy stuff). And, ofc, Thore's slight head-nod he always does to portray, "Yes, yes, this is right!" in romantic scenes, esp after kissing. AGREE I guess , is very unpopular here to criticize the acting of Jo or Thore.... but I have to agree with you ... "He looks cheesy as hell!!" ( in this episode was Jo " the King of acting" for me .... ) Tom Chroust, you failed me today. Not cool, dude, not cool./Lucky Downer On a positive note - Olli has finally slammed the door on Christian's face; it was long overdue. Thank you Olli/Jo for redeeming this episode. AGREE
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Post by ChrolliForever23 on May 5, 2011 0:52:35 GMT -5
I have to say Jo and Thore were just perfect today. They both show emotion like I've never seen before. I really can't wait to see how the writer's bring them back together somehow, someway, and someday.
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Zam
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Posts: 1,805
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Post by Zam on May 5, 2011 2:13:07 GMT -5
You know, I've been watching soaps long enough to accept a couple separating or breaking up or whatever the hell this was today. As a faithful viewer and fan of soaps, I'm willing to accept this kind of thing if the show gives me a good reason to believe it.
Obviously, a staple of the form is characters constantly making bad decisions to prolong drama and give the characters something to do. Still, the bad decision needs to make sense.
The writing of this episode was nothing but LAZY.
Why did Olli bring up Lily as an example of the "great divide" that currently separates them? The couple fought for weeks about children. Christian is okay with children, so long as one of the two of them is the bio-dad. What Christian and Olli argued about for weeks is being temporary parents to foster children who could be taken away (like Lily) at a moment's notice. Olli's selective memory on this point makes him lose a lot of creditibility, especially when he selfishly views their childless life as a sacrifice.
The two of them did themselves no favors by shagging all night. That kind of thing sends mixed signals, right? Granted, with such serious issues between them, Olli and Chris should have had an adult conversation instead of adult entertainment in the bedroom. The sex I can excuse, just because it's a soap.
Olli's 180-degree turn the next morning after shagging all night wasn't justified enough by the show. Especially since he inititated the physical contact on the couch, and the kiss. Especially since he told Christian earlier that day he wasn't sure he could trust him.
(was the sex that bad? If so, why did they do it all night?)
Christian's made some big mistakes with the lady-kissing.
There are three years of combined history here the writers could have used appropriately to get us to the point of separation at the end of the episode. Instead, we got half-assed reasons that were, at best, ret-con.
The writers are really going out of their way on this story to assassinate Olli's character. When did he become so insecure and irrational? Yes, cheating is sensitive and emotional and is a serious breach of trust. However, when Olli says on more than one occasion he would mind less if Christian slept with a man than a woman "because he could fight for Christian," it first, is a lazy and dangerous statement by the writers in assigning greater value to cheating with one gender over another. And to have the writers put the words "when you touch me, I wonder who you're thinking of" in Olli's mouth, it baffles me. Is Olli SO INSECURE to wonder if Chris is thinking about JESSICA or REBECCA or KIM?? Really? I'd worry more that Christian cheated with a man, because he'd think about a man long before he thought of any of those girls. (statement about characters, not gender)
Yes, Christian has made some mistakes. The lady-kisses were wrong. Even though he probably didn't actually do it, the confession about sleeping with Jessica is a huge breach of trust and he needs to pay some price for it.
Olli would be far more sympathetic as the cuckolded lover if the writers weren't so intent on assassinating his character.
Lazy, lazy writing. This is what happens when the show and the network continually refuse to give these actors the A-story they deserve.
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Post by psychomary on May 5, 2011 2:16:39 GMT -5
"Lazy, lazy writing. This is what happens when the show and the network continually refuse to give these actors the A-story they deserve." Zam: you're so right!!!
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Post by katiem26 on May 5, 2011 2:37:37 GMT -5
You are right . After so long together they deserve more recognition and needed more screen time for this break up. As many of you say there was dialogue missing that would have made the episode flow better. We are at the mercy of these writers .
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gelybi
Junior Member
Last passionate kiss???
Posts: 665
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Post by gelybi on May 5, 2011 3:46:24 GMT -5
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Post by pemberley187 on May 5, 2011 3:50:56 GMT -5
*shouldn't still be at her computer!* I don't know how deliberate or not this was (possibly not at all, but I'll run with this anyway!), but note that at the exact moment when they both put a hand to the door, in the exact same spot and at the exact same time, the overlaid lyric goes "Do you love me?"...So the lyric asks the question, as it had done in the previous scene, and Christian and Thore give the audience the answer as to just how much with their last moments in the episode...and indeed to the very last moment, as the lyric still asks the question as they both sit against the door, totally heartbroken and desperately missing the other one at the exact same moment... Those last moments were so "Yes, these two belong together and we know it"... Nite nite, y'all!x Thanks for this Joanna I do like your reasoning but I am not loving all this symbolism that we are getting in the Chrolli part of this storyline. We have Helandi struggling to deal with ther relationship crisis we know that Olli and Christian are having a crisis but rather than drama dialogue and intrigue in Chrolli's storyline we get the symbolism. Oh they belong together through swans, other people talking about their relationship but I don't really feel have are actually getting a real serious Chrolli drama or Chrolli storyline. Just wanted to add I loved both Jo and Olli were great tonight.
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Post by mariesun on May 5, 2011 3:53:33 GMT -5
and on a more negative note... It all sounded pretty much definitive for me, a very clear goodbye episode... definiteve ....it's strange , but for me not at all .... It was sad, but a definitive breakup in the soap looks very different IMO
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Post by fillelina on May 5, 2011 3:57:54 GMT -5
And, that annoying singing from their wedding....out of all the parts they could have chosen from their wedding day to reminisce, for Olli to REFLECT UPON with regards to the CURRENT CRISIS...... LIKE...oh...I dunno.......CHRISTIAN'S VOW, "YOU'VE SHOWN ME WHO I REALLY AM"........no, no.....they had to choose the awful, cheesy, can't sing-sounds like a conference of crows, a cappella part. I think it's obvious that Olli was watching this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLV-COFjXPkThat's the video Constantin made for Chrolli and gave it to them after wedding, and they watched it with Rebecca and Charlie. There are no clips from the wedding vows there they could have shown. And that cheesy song is playing on the background throughout the whole video.
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gelybi
Junior Member
Last passionate kiss???
Posts: 665
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Post by gelybi on May 5, 2011 4:19:11 GMT -5
and on a more negative note... It all sounded pretty much definitive for me, a very clear goodbye episode... definiteve ....it's strange , but for me not at all .... It was sad, but a definitive breakup in the soap looks very different IMO I had the feeling while watching the episode that is like going in circles. We have Olli that can't trust Christian anymore, and find it difficult to believe anything he said. On the other hand we have Christian that is willing to show his love for Olli and fight for him ONLY if Olli is willing to believe him. So...what else? Olli is too messed up at this point to ask anything from him (he's lacking the strenght to fight, he can't think right) and Christian is not able to fight for their marriage the way he should (at least without conditions). And while Christian was just reluctantly giving Olli the so-called time-out, Olli was really saying goodbye. It was clear they love each other, yes sure, but it was also stated that love isn't enough. Maybe the lack of dialogue and the cut out scenes made all this look so helpless (and a bit rushed) and sent the message of a completely shattered couple without a possible solution on the horizon, at least for me.
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Post by teachgirl on May 5, 2011 7:16:08 GMT -5
On the issue of whether they should have had sex, I was thinking that this is not the first time they've used it as a way to paper over their problems. While I love the 3/26/10 love scene in the midst of the Rob storyline as much as everyone else, it also came at a very awkward moment in the story, filled with tension and distrust, and Olli initiated that one as well.
Okay, yes, it's a soap so of course they use sex in this way, but I also think that at this moment it's very human and very real. And again, the lazy writing is not what's convincing me of the realness here, it's Jo's acting.
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Trish
Senior Member
Posts: 9,631
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Post by Trish on May 5, 2011 8:10:58 GMT -5
You know, I've been watching soaps long enough to accept a couple separating or breaking up or whatever the hell this was today. As a faithful viewer and fan of soaps, I'm willing to accept this kind of thing if the show gives me a good reason to believe it. Obviously, a staple of the form is characters constantly making bad decisions to prolong drama and give the characters something to do. Still, the bad decision needs to make sense. The writing of this episode was nothing but LAZY. Why did Olli bring up Lily as an example of the "great divide" that currently separates them? The couple fought for weeks about children. Christian is okay with children, so long as one of the two of them is the bio-dad. What Christian and Olli argued about for weeks is being temporary parents to foster children who could be taken away (like Lily) at a moment's notice. Olli's selective memory on this point makes him lose a lot of creditibility, especially when he selfishly views their childless life as a sacrifice. The two of them did themselves no favors by shagging all night. That kind of thing sends mixed signals, right? Granted, with such serious issues between them, Olli and Chris should have had an adult conversation instead of adult entertainment in the bedroom. The sex I can excuse, just because it's a soap. Olli's 180-degree turn the next morning after shagging all night wasn't justified enough by the show. Especially since he inititated the physical contact on the couch, and the kiss. Especially since he told Christian earlier that day he wasn't sure he could trust him. (was the sex that bad? If so, why did they do it all night?) Christian's made some big mistakes with the lady-kissing. There are three years of combined history here the writers could have used appropriately to get us to the point of separation at the end of the episode. Instead, we got half-assed reasons that were, at best, ret-con. The writers are really going out of their way on this story to assassinate Olli's character. When did he become so insecure and irrational? Yes, cheating is sensitive and emotional and is a serious breach of trust. However, when Olli says on more than one occasion he would mind less if Christian slept with a man than a woman "because he could fight for Christian," it first, is a lazy and dangerous statement by the writers in assigning greater value to cheating with one gender over another. And to have the writers put the words "when you touch me, I wonder who you're thinking of" in Olli's mouth, it baffles me. Is Olli SO INSECURE to wonder if Chris is thinking about JESSICA or REBECCA or KIM?? Really? I'd worry more that Christian cheated with a man, because he'd think about a man long before he thought of any of those girls. (statement about characters, not gender) Yes, Christian has made some mistakes. The lady-kisses were wrong. Even though he probably didn't actually do it, the confession about sleeping with Jessica is a huge breach of trust and he needs to pay some price for it. Olli would be far more sympathetic as the cuckolded lover if the writers weren't so intent on assassinating his character. Lazy, lazy writing. This is what happens when the show and the network continually refuse to give these actors the A-story they deserve. You've said a lot of the things that I've thought. I'm not sure if they are trying to destroy Olli's character, or maybe level the playing field a bit. I too had trouble getting from Olli intiating the sex and then the next morning acting like it meant nothing. That coupled with Christian saying that it was the best that they had had in a long while, does make you wonder if he isn't as good as he thinks. The baby issue bothers me too. Chrisitan is younger than Olli and he wants to not have kids now, but given that all it took was a visit to see his niece and nephew to get him on the baby train, I wouldn't think that it would take that long for him to want it again. All he wanted was to get back to what they had, a safe place for a while and then maybe he would have the strength to fight. Olli mentioned that he was making the sacrafice to not have a child, when Christian made the sacrafice to do the foster child, eventhough he knew it would be hard on him when it was time to let go. The comments on who Chrisitian was thinking of was, as you said, bad writting. I gave my own comment of a better line, but if he was feeling that way all night, you would think that he would not have be able to perform very well. I want Chrolli to get back together, but I'm not sure how much more of the hot and cold Olli I can take.
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Post by dalphine on May 5, 2011 12:18:36 GMT -5
I feel Olli was just in the moment he was watching there wedding video and Christian was looking yummy and isn't that the way they always fix there problem by having sex. But Olli realize the next moring that isn't working he can't just fix what's wrong with sex. He just did the reverse he had sex before the breakup.
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Post by ChrolliTime on May 5, 2011 12:23:34 GMT -5
Haven't commented here in quite some time but felt that I have to do it now.
After taking a break from Chrolli for a while I'm all caught up with the show and mostly enjoying this current storyline. It is of course far from perfect, but the great acting goes a long way for me to get past the flaws.
In this episode Jo and Thore, especially Jo, were particularly great and I also liked most of the writing. The sex part didn't bother me at all. In fact I agree with teachgirl that this moment was very real and human. Olli may be hurting but he loves Christian and wanted to feel close to him again even though he probably knew it wouldn't change anything. And it didn't, as in the morning all those doubts and fears were still there. Perhaps a scene where Olli reflects on his feelings before the breakfast would've been in order though, because as a whole this episode seemed a bit rushed, and of course too short.
As for the whole storyline and Christian's indiscretions, I don't see them as mere "lady-kisses". To me its cheating, regardless how far he went or what his motivations were. He cheated and now has to suffer the consequences.
I understand Olli's insecurities after everything that has happened (fears are not often rational after all) but I still wish that the focus of the writing wasn't as much on the woman-aspect. The deception is quite enough in itself. Also, having these insecurities would make more sense if it was Christian who wanted the kids more than Olli, in accordance to his old hetero dream.
I don't want to be overly critical towards the storyline because that would ruin it for me. If I felt as negatively about the writing and especially about the characters as some you seem to I wouldn't be able to watch the show. Before the Lily-storyline, as I was reading the spoilers, I didn't like it one bit. But eventually I watched the story and quite enjoyed it, after I just decided to go with the flow. So I will try and focus on the positives again, such as the added screentime for our Chrolli, the superb acting and even some of the writing.
I believe Olli and Christian will be together again some day, even if it takes a long time, and I'm all in for the ride.
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Trish
Senior Member
Posts: 9,631
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Post by Trish on May 5, 2011 12:27:14 GMT -5
I guess. It's just that line about not knowing what Chrisitian was thinking when he look at and touched him. Really wish they hadn't put that in. During a whole night of sex, he really thought that Chrisitan might of been thinking about women. Couldn't during one of their breathers, he could maybe have stopped things and figured out it wasn't working then. As much as I liked the show, that I think was bad writng. I am glad that they change the scene on the couch from the one in the preview, because with that scene, I would been in more at a loss.
I guess I just need to accept it for what it is, it is a just a show, but I really wish the writers would think a little more about what is said, verses the actions that are done.
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maya
Full Member
Posts: 2,137
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Post by maya on May 5, 2011 12:37:47 GMT -5
great post ChrolliTime, I agree with many of the points you stated, especially this last part: So I will try and focus on the positives again, such as the added screentime for our Chrolli, the superb acting and even some of the writing. I believe Olli and Christian will be together again some day, even if it takes a long time, and I'm all in for the ride. and by the way welcome back to the forum
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joanna
Senior Member
Former Verbotene Liebe Champion.
Posts: 8,547
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Post by joanna on May 5, 2011 19:31:52 GMT -5
Courtesy of Lugia, the 'Verbotene Liebe TV Preview 3832, long version'... ETA: .... The part from the preview that didn't actually air in the episode itself...
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Post by dalphine on May 5, 2011 20:44:17 GMT -5
I always wonder why they cut scenes, especially when they show it in the previews a different way.
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Trish
Senior Member
Posts: 9,631
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Post by Trish on May 5, 2011 21:34:37 GMT -5
I'm not sure if it was cut or if it was just a different take. In one Olli is taking the lead and in the other Christian is a little more so after Olli give him the green light.
The Rebecca/Olli scene, I have no clue why it was cut. Usually they claim that it wasm't material to the plot, but we have seen plenty of spoiler pics that never made the final cut.
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Post by evajan2 on May 6, 2011 1:17:52 GMT -5
I had the feeling while watching the episode that is like going in circles. We have Olli that can't trust Christian anymore, and find it difficult to believe anything he said. On the other hand we have Christian that is willing to show his love for Olli and fight for him ONLY if Olli is willing to believe him.
So...what else? Olli is too messed up at this point to ask anything from him (he's lacking the strenght to fight, he can't think right) and Christian is not able to fight for their marriage the way he should (at least without conditions).
And while Christian was just reluctantly giving Olli the so-called time-out, Olli was really saying goodbye.
It was clear they love each other, yes sure, but it was also stated that love isn't enough.
Maybe the lack of dialogue and the cut out scenes made all this look so helpless (and a bit rushed) and sent the message of a completely shattered couple without a possible solution on the horizon, at least for me. agree with you on all points except the last sentence .... I also think that all this looks a bit helpless and a bit rushed as well ... IMO problem is just a lack of screen time for these scenes and with more dialogues and more time would these scenes look a bit better ... and for me Chrolli don't look like the " couple without a possible solution on the horizon" there , not at all ... even after these scenes..maybe I'm blind
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Post by pemberley187 on May 6, 2011 3:38:04 GMT -5
I had the feeling while watching the episode that is like going in circles. We have Olli that can't trust Christian anymore, and find it difficult to believe anything he said. On the other hand we have Christian that is willing to show his love for Olli and fight for him ONLY if Olli is willing to believe him.
So...what else? Olli is too messed up at this point to ask anything from him (he's lacking the strenght to fight, he can't think right) and Christian is not able to fight for their marriage the way he should (at least without conditions).
And while Christian was just reluctantly giving Olli the so-called time-out, Olli was really saying goodbye.
It was clear they love each other, yes sure, but it was also stated that love isn't enough.
Maybe the lack of dialogue and the cut out scenes made all this look so helpless (and a bit rushed) and sent the message of a completely shattered couple without a possible solution on the horizon, at least for me. agree with you on all points except the last sentence .... I also think that all this looks a bit helpless and a bit rushed as well ... IMO problem is just a lack of screen time for these scenes and with more dialogues and more time would these scenes look a bit better ... and for me Chrolli don't look like the " couple without a possible solution on the horizon" there , not at all ... even after these scenes..maybe I'm blind I think we the viewer are meant to believe its all over. I thought that Olli wanting to have sex with Christian was because he knew in his mind that he was going to ask for a break and wanted just one more night with the man he loves. I think the idea is that we are meant to feel that its all over for Chrolli there is no way they can get beyond this (this is certainly how Olli feels). And that Helandi who are doing all they can to keep there relationship going and looking like they will succeed but remember this is a soap and just because we are being pointed in one direction doesn't mean that is how this storyline will play out in the end.
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Post by lolaruns on May 6, 2011 12:24:26 GMT -5
Sorry that I'm late to the party. - Yeah it was unfair that Tanja/Seb dominated the storyline. On the other hand Tanja/Seb are really entertaining so at least they didn't snub Chrolli for a sucky storyline like Phico or Helandi or Wolf family bore. - Just so nobody says again I only bash Christian: I think the gay/straight/bi aspect of the story is stupid. I think it's stupid that Olli seems to be making it about this. I hate this attitude that Olli and VL in general has about this. It feels forced. It makes me yearn for a story where Olli is actually looking for a fake excuse to break up with Christian because then at least the story would make more sense. I thought that the "who are you really thinking of" line was really stupid and uncalled for. I think it's lame that Olli presumably has this fears, but if he has them there should be a more normal way to talk about this.
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Post by dalphine on May 6, 2011 12:54:11 GMT -5
I think Olli has the right to have these feeling. Christian has done this several times and he feels that Christian is wanting to get back with women he thinks it's best if they take time out so Christian can make up his mind what he really wants.
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Post by lolaruns on May 6, 2011 13:04:55 GMT -5
I think Olli has the right to have these feeling. Christian has done this several times and he feels that Christian is wanting to get back with women he thinks it's best if they take time out so Christian can make up his mind what he really wants. He has the right to have any feelings but, imo: 1.) I find it hard to relate to them. This shouldn't be news to Olli. AND he himself was the target of bisexuality distrust. He himself has encouraged people to be bi (think Charlie/Stella) and not be so judgemental. So this rings extremely false to me, especially since imo the show hasn't really gone into the detail and dealt with the gravitas. IMO with Chrolli's story background they could easily have a scene where Olli pours his heart out to somebody and admits that his fear go back to the whole surrogate issue/not being able to have biological children together. IMO that would have been more belivable even with Olli's history. 2.) It felt like he was swapping issues. I find that really annoying in a conversation. Olli doesn't do himself any favors with it when he's being obtuse. That's why I liked the big about it feeling like a sacrifice to him to give up children because that part felt actually honest/Olli actually saying what he means deep inside.
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