Meta on straight actors in gay roles

[Bonobochick]

I wanted to start a thread on this topic cause I figured that meta is good for the soul.


I know this can be a touchy subject but I was talking with someone on PM about it and how if a straight actor is going to play a gay character, he should commit to the role and not shy away from the physical intimacies that come with the role... like kissing.

Now, there has been alleged "ducking" by known straight actors on some soaps when it comes to kissing and more physical scenes, though we can obviously rule out Jo, Thore and Igor on those charges cause we have all seen that they commit to their respective roles. I've seen it and it generally doesn't bother me for the most part though it does make me wonder why the actor agreed to a role in which he couldn't fully commit to all aspects of it.


Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on this subject.

[lolaruns]

Does that still happen though? I guess maybe in some movies (I remember some very odd pretty close mouthed kisses in some older movies), but I get the impression that more recently, the actors who did sign up to do gay roles, delivered good kiss scenes.

Heck, I get the impression that the actors who do sign up for it even seem to consider it a badge of honor that they can pull off passionate gay and portray something that is "so far away from themselves"

Of course it's hard to tell when a movie doesn't have many passionate scenes, whether it is an actor or a TPTB decision. Sometimes you get the impression that maybe an actor is willing to pull all the stops for a big kissing scene, but tunes down the investment in casual scenes.

Regardless what the reason, if an actor doesn't deliver the kissing scenes, then they are not going to sell the relationship in a credible way, which means that they can't do their job, hence, why keep them?

I have to agree with Denis Grabosch here. The kissing question needs to stop being asked. Kissing is part of an actor's repertoire. Actors constantly kiss female co-stars they aren't married to and that they are (hopefully) not in love with, so why should they get special props for kissing a man? It's not some amazing out of the ordinary feat they are delivering, it's their basic repertoire and if they fail at it then they have failed as actors.

why the actor agreed to a role in which he couldn't fully commit to all aspects of it.

To be fair though, not all actors might know. I hear some soaps cast based on newspaper contests, for a lot of actors its their first jobs, for some actors they might not know from the beginning that their role is gonna end up bi (I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case for Thore who after all has been for the show 2 years already before this storyline came along; and the actor who played Ulli said that they decided to make Ulli gay because the character wasn't working so they needed to try something else; meanwhile the actor who played Tom said that they initially told him that his character would be bi).

To me that doesn't make much difference though. Because it really shouldn't make a difference whether they knew beforehand or not. After all, they might be ask to play serial killers or rapists and compared to that why should playing gay be considered more challenging? They are actors. They might be asked to interpret any number of things.

[Bonobochick]

lolaruns said:

Heck, I get the impression that the actors who do sign up for it even seem to consider it a badge of honor that they can pull off passionate gay and portray something that is "so far away from themselves"

I will have more to say later but it has always bothered me to hear someone being praised as brave for playing a gay role. Maybe 30 years ago I could understand, heck even 20 years ago, but now?

[lolaruns]

I can get it maybe in a general sense, actors being afraid to take a role because they are afraid that they'll be stereotyped, that it will harm their acting career if they take a high profile gay role etc. So maybe, depending on the evironment I might think they might deserve some credit for it (again, see examples of actors receiving death threats or even being beated up for being "that f*g from Verbotene Liebe").

But for the execution itself, like kissing for example? Errr, no.

[neenski]

Just as an aside, if you're asking the question the other way around - what if a gay actor plays a straight role? Then the reaction is sort of, "uh, yeah, but he is an actor, he ought to be able to pull it off, duh!" - and I think that says all. (Just think of Neil Patrick Harris in 'How I Met Your Mother' - Barney FTW! *g*)

[lolaruns]

And isn't history full of closeted actors who made great romantic couples? Isn't Luke of Luke and Laura gay?

I do have to wonder sometimes. Theoretically an actor's personal orientation shouldn't matter. They are actors after all, so gay playing straight, gay playing gay, straight playing gay, straight people straight, shouldn't make a difference.

Yet, I can't help but think if the times when you have a gay actor playing a gay character doesn't add a special sensibility after all. Again thinking of Dennis Grabosch and the guys from Lindenstrasse; I could never shake the feeling that rather than it being about how they execute the roles, but rather that maybe almost unintentionally help steer the roles; that maybe they are better than their straight counterparts at being able to tell when something is unrealistic and when it isn't and when you have to play certain things up or down.

Makes me wonder if maybe directors actually prefer casting straight actors for gay roles because they are afraid of, well, the swishy. Like a gay actor couldn't play a gay role while still being macho enough.

[Bonobochick]

neenski said:

Just as an aside, if you're asking the question the other way around - what if a gay actor plays a straight role? Then the reaction is sort of, "uh, yeah, but he is an actor, he ought to be able to pull it off, duh!" - and I think that says all. (Just think of Neil Patrick Harris in 'How I Met Your Mother' - Barney FTW! *g*)

I've rarely seen a gay actor asked what it's like to play straight . I know NPH is one actor asked that question or a statement will be phrased in a way questioning whether a gay man can portray a straight character convincingly. I've never seen T.R. Knight asked that regarding his role on Grey's Anatomy (it could have happened, I've just not seen it). I am sure there are other out actors in prominent straight roles but my coffee high is failing me at the moment.

[ivaniv]

I thought I'd post these Stephen Fry's comments on the matter. He's quite amusing and right, too, IMO...

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7176436.stm

[lolaruns]

a statement will be phrased in a way questioning whether a gay man can portray a straight character convincingly.

It's all in the tone. For the straight guy "You are so brave, how did you survive this ordeal" and for a gay guy it's "Are you good enough? Do you really think you can suppress your true nature enough to play gay?".

Which exactly why these kind of questions need to be done away with, period.

Love that Stephen Fry interview. He puts it so perfectly!

[neenski]

Yet, I can't help but think if the times when you have a gay actor playing a gay character doesn't add a special sensibility after all. Again thinking of Dennis Grabosch and the guys from Lindenstrasse; I could never shake the feeling that rather than it being about how they execute the roles, but rather that maybe almost unintentionally help steer the roles; that maybe they are better than their straight counterparts at being able to tell when something is unrealistic and when it isn't and when you have to play certain things up or down.

Makes me wonder if maybe directors actually prefer casting straight actors for gay roles because they are afraid of, well, the swishy. Like a gay actor couldn't play a gay role while still being macho enough.

Yeah, if you're gay yourself, you do know what the character is going through and you also know what works and what not, so this is an advantage. *nods* It's also the same way when the writer(s) of a show or a movie are gay themselves - just think of 'Six Feet Under' and the excellent Keith&David storyline. Its creator Alan Ball is gay. And I bet that is also the case with other shows that have good gay storylines; after all, actors don't have 100% full input on what they can or can't do with their role.

And re the 'gays are too gay' part - that probably applies, yes. *nods* I can't help wondering if NPH or T.R. would've gotten their parts if they'd outed themselves before they were cast - imvho probably not, which proves the stupidity of people who still think in stereotypes. *shakes her head*

[lolaruns]

For that reason, I was surprised to find out that Ang Lee is not gay. Not only did he do Brokeback Mountain, BBM was also his second movie with gay themes (the other one was Wedding Banquet). I guess you can still see some straight sensibilities in BBM, but it was still unexpected to me.

That said, not that it matters.

I am sure that somebody behind the scenes (producer, writer) at VL must be gay too. I would be very surprised if that wasn't the case. But we'll probably never know who

[neenski]

*nods* Yeah, Ang Lee is straight, and a good gay storyline doesn't necessarily have to written by a straight writer, that's right. But that said, I heard that the script to BBM (which originated as a short story written by Annie Proulx) had been already written and circled around H'wood several years prior to shooting - it was the best-written script ever that would never get shot because of the gay content, is what I heard at the time. Then Focus Features picked it up and they got Ang Lee to direct it and cast Jake and Heath - and, well, the rest is history. *winks*

That said, why do you think it is that there are rumors without end about Jake being gay? He did really, and I mean absolutely, pull off the troubled yet easygoing/sensual nature of Jack Twist. Is it because he played the role too good? *wonders*

[lolaruns]

Obviously Anthony Hopkins must be a cannibal.

[kyle]

Curious question.. I can only speak for what I've read in North America. Lots of actors will stay away from gay roles for the simple fact they are told it would be a instant kill of their carreers. If they play a gay role, they can forget getting lead roles in romantic stories etc or they will be typecasted forever. Is this the same for european actors? I wonder if it is more of an North American hang up. There are rumours of many, actors being gay and hiding or refusing to come out because their people tell them it is a bad career move. Is this true for let's use German actors as an example?

[lolaruns]

Truth to be told, I have no idea. There are just so few successful European actors it's hard to tell. Most who can be considered successful move to the united states, falling under their success laws. And most examples I can think of are either british or female.

As for people *inside* the European market, hard to say. For one the markets are rather small. Somebody big in Belgium probably won't be big Italy. Language barriers often mean that there is not much overlap. And within one market the market usually isn't large enough to support a variety of careers.

Of course it could also be that I just don't follow German media ;p Most of the gay playing actors didn't amount to anything, but then again most young German actors don't amount to anything (for example it seems to be an unwritten law that most German soap actors try their hand at pop music).

I get the impression that in general Germany has too many actors compared to how many tv and movie roles there are, so there is usually a lot of rotation aside from a handful of recognizable faces and the majority of those faces are usually old (because whoever is young and good looking often leaves to try their luck in the US anyway). Meanwhile the actors who do play gay in German movies are more likely to be the freshfaced innocent type (like in Sommersturm). They are usually beloved, but they are also the type who don't get much respect either way and would have had trouble finding work even if they hadn't played gay.

As for the soap actors so far:
- Kay Böger/Tom doesn't seem to have amounted to much after VL
- Andi Stenschke/Ulli seems to be on another soap (no idea what his role is there and wheter it's big)
- Jo Weil/Olli got hired to a primetime show which I guess would be considered a step up and stayed till it was cancelled; did theater and dubbing after that. Can't have been too great since he is back on soaps; I have no idea how big his role was
- Georg Uecker/Carsten is a big personality in showbiz but he does mainly non-acting work (tv host, comedy shows)

The two guys who played gay and bi on the miniseries Verrückt Nach Clara (Paul and Simon) seem to have a decent list of work by German standards. "Simon" was aside from guest star work a regular on a cop show it seems)

I can't really think of a lot of male out German actors of high profile. I know it Austria it was kinda a big deal when mostly tv host and occasional actor Alfons Haider outed himself. He still gets a lot of high profile hosting jobs and does theater. He doesn't seem to do much tv acting anymore (of course in my opinion he was always a very terrible actor, not to mention that he is older now). When he came out (10 years plus ago) he said he was in the closet because he was afraid of hurting his reputation as Austria's "Favorite Son In Law" (meaning a young good looking, well behaved seeming guy who is particularly loved by older women; the expression meaning that he is the kind of nice guy they would love their daughter's to marry because he is so charming). Apparently he now says the if he could go back he wouldn't out himself anymore to protect his family and life partner from the tabloid public eye. I remember when he came out a lot of mean wagging tongues claim he did it because he was about to get fired from his job at the ORF and came out so they couldn't fire him because it would have looked like discrimination. He however claims that he outed himself because somebody else threatened to out him.

I do get the impression that gay people in Germany seem to do better in jobs where their sensuality isn't on the forefrom as much (hosts, comedians, politicians).

It's entirely possible that I'm completely mistaken with my assessment of the situation and somebody who is more informed about the German entertainment industry can help with this. Maybe somebody who is more up to date can help you out.

(interestingly I also don't really remember any famous gay theater actors or opera singers; which doesn't mean that they don't exist, it's just that I have never heard of them in the context "OMG, he is a gay theater actor/omg he/she is a gay opera singer"; of course I know jack about the private lives of pretty much any theater/opera people, just saying that if any of them were gay it never hit any headlines)

[neenski]

lolaruns said:

Meanwhile the actors who do play gay in German movies are more likely to be the freshfaced innocent type (like in Sommersturm). They are usually beloved, but they are also the type who don't get much respect either way and would have had trouble finding work even if they hadn't played gay.

Well, Robert Stadlober (who played the main character, Tobi, in Sommersturm and declared himself bisexual - now in a relationship with a woman) is still getting more than enough work as you can see on his imdb.com profile. ;D

lolaruns said:

I can't really think of a lot of male out German actors of high profile.

About that you're right - I couldn't remember any out and proud gay German actor immediately and had to google for them. *laughs* There's Hape Kerkeling, who's also a comedian, but he acts from time to time, too. And don't forget about Udo Kier (I had no clue that he was gay, but he is, and pretty much open about it). But younger guys? Aside from the bisexual Stadlober, there apparently is no one... strange. But then, the pool of German actors is fairly small and crowded, like lolaruns says, and an outing might hurt the chances of an up and coming actor searching for work...

[lolaruns]

Mmmmm Udo Kier! Love that guy! I had no idea Kerkeling was gay.

To tell the truth, I generally have a hard time naming famous German actors (excluding primarily Hollywood actors) who were successful in more than one movie (or tv show). And a whole lot of them are old coots or are the type who would probably never be asked to play gay (errr Ottfried Fischer anyone?).

Till Schweiger's breakout movie was Der Bewegte Mann where he played the straight guy the gay guy has a crush on (doesn't return the feelings, but isn't an a d*ck about it), but I don't know if he has ever played gay.

[susurrus]

neenski said:

Well, Robert Stadlober (who played the main character, Tobi, in Sommersturm and declared himself bisexual - now in a relationship with a woman) is still getting more than enough work as you can see on his imdb.com profile. ;D

Robert Stadlober is bisexual? I didn't know about that...
But I do agree that he's rather successful and the movies he plays in are usually pretty good, too.

[lolaruns]

He was actually the guy I thought of when question was asked. I do get the impression that it has hurt his appeal at all, but on the other hand I wonder whether he will have a tough time finding roles when he is older. Not because of the gay/bi angle, but because of the sort of babyface look he has. You never know whether that will age well.

[neenski]

*snickers* Truth be told, Robert Stadlober already sports major "Geheimratsecken" (German expression for a receding hairline, especially around the temples), that's why he has always his hair combed down like that: estb.msn.com/i/5B/E6FF58926D59C1456E4BB4365DB.jpg

So, uh, yeah - not looking good for him, I'd say. *coughs* Probably that's the reason why he's currently swamped in work - to cash in on his looks while he still can!

And clarifying the subject of Robert's bisexuality: Although The Advocate has claimed that he is bisexual[1], Stadtlober himself objects to such labelling. While he has had kisses and sex with men and sees nothing bad in that or in falling in love with a man, he is currently in a relationship with a female, which he began shortly before the filming of Summer Storm. (from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stadlober)

[nanna]

There's the straight German actor Henning Baum who played Leo Kraft, a gay cop, in a successful German cop show "Mit Herz und Handschellen". He even got the German TV award (best actor) for this role. And judging from his imdb profile it neither hurt his career nor was he type-cast as "gay". It was a great show and the fact that Baum is a real eye candy also helped.

[lolaruns]

nanna said:

There's the straight German actor Henning Baum who played Leo Kraft, a gay cop, in a successful German cop show "Mit Herz und Handschellen". He even got the German TV award (best actor) for this role. And judging from his imdb profile it neither hurt his career nor was he type-cast as "gay". It was a great show and the fact that Baum is a real eye candy also helped.

Okay, I might have to track that down. I remember the eyecandy that it HB from Sinan Toprak, a certain guilty pleasure show of mine.

[Simone]

Not German, but Javier Bardem and Antonio Banderas have both done gay movies. Banderas actually grew to international prominence for his work in Almodóvar's films where he played a gay character twice.

And isn't history full of closeted actors who made great romantic couples? Isn't Luke of Luke and Laura gay?

Yes, Tony Geary is gay. He is out though he doesn't discuss it in interviews and the soap mags never ask.

[lolaruns]

Speaking of soap actors who are gay, but play straight apparently Thomas Gumpert from VL who played the family patriarch (basically the father of all the aristocratic characters like Sarah, Ansgar and Carla) is also gay (supposedly).



Another one is Klaus Nierfhoff. Looks like a fairly normal tv career to me.

[Difficult Diva]

Simone - I have a friend (who works for one of the American soap opera magazines) who told me months ago about Tony Geary. I had no idea. I didn't even know that he had a longterm relationship with Ron Glass from Barney Miller and Firefly/Serenity.

simone said:

Not German, but Javier Bardem and Antonio Banderas have both done gay movies. Banderas actually grew to international prominence for his work in Almodóvar's films where he played a gay character twice.

And isn't history full of closeted actors who made great romantic couples? Isn't Luke of Luke and Laura gay?

Yes, Tony Geary is gay. He is out though he doesn't discuss it in interviews and the soap mags never ask.