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Post by butterfinger on Jul 31, 2010 8:19:36 GMT -5
I disagree that Roman had no right to say that to Deniz. I think he had every right, and it was way time that someone told Deniz how fucked up his behaviour is. Because when you love someone that you look them in the eye and tell them what their problem is. Because Roman loves Deniz he needs to say this. It may be harsh, but it had to be said. you can't help addicts by patting their heads and saying "there, there." It doesn't work that way.
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Post by Zathras on Jul 31, 2010 11:32:59 GMT -5
I agree (in principle) that you have to be tough on addicts, but in my mind he could have had the same impact on Deniz without calling him a "loser." The problem is that Roman should understand how fragile Deniz is right now (he knows Deniz, and Florian's been feeding him bits and pieces of information). The guy who cheated on him just called him a loser; that's going to affect Deniz whether or not he was high. It just further reinforces how shitty Deniz feels about himself right now, and pushes him in the wrong direction - further along his downward spiral.
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Post by camjakefan on Jul 31, 2010 12:06:47 GMT -5
I'd really like to see Roman realize why he cheated. When he spoke with Marian he said he doesn't know why he did it when Deniz is the one he loves. So for me it wasn't that he was in love with Marc. I think Roman has to realize he is an needy person emotionally and Marc was there during a time when he was being confronted with all these issues. Because Deniz wasn't there he went to the next person he felt a connection to and knew him from a time in his life when he had all these dreams and goals yet to be attained and not all his perceived disappointments and failures.
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Post by butterfinger on Jul 31, 2010 12:13:57 GMT -5
Roman cheated because he is human. Because Marc appeared, brought all those feelings back and Roman couldn't help himself. We saw it happening. It´'s what he said. There is nothing else to say. It happens. Get over it and move on. He told Marian that much. I think what he really meant was that he couldn't understand why it happened even though he was in love with Deniz, but that he finally realized he wanted to be with Deniz because he loved him. Which doesn't men he didn't love Marc. I think he did - does still - in a way. But this love or anything related to it isn't as important as Deniz. Period. And really - what else is there to say?
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megi307
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Post by megi307 on Jul 31, 2010 12:14:57 GMT -5
I also agree that you have to be tough on addicts !!!! And "when you love someone" of course you have a right to say this, but Roman lost his right !!! In my country is saying "don`t kick the person who is already lying" and this is exactly this case. In this moment for Deniz, Roman isn`t a person who loves him only those who the most hurt him . Deniz doesn`t need to hear, that he`s loser exactly from Roman. In my opinion, Roman made it more difficult. Now, Deniz will do the worst stupidity to prove Roman, that he was wrong.
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Post by butterfinger on Jul 31, 2010 12:19:40 GMT -5
Why has Roman lost that right? He still loves Deniz. Sure, he hurt him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care anymore. Rowan is very aware of the fact that he is the guilty part here. Remember what he said to Marian. But ... what would you have him say to Deniz - in that exact same situation? Deniz completely lost it. And someone had to tell him exactly that. Because, really, nobody else seems to care - of have the guts to tell him the truth.
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megi307
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REAL lovestories never have endings!!!
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Post by megi307 on Jul 31, 2010 13:01:02 GMT -5
I remember, what Roman said to Marian and I really love this scene Don`t get me wrong, I know Roman really cares and he still loves Deniz. But for Deniz, Roman is only reason for all his misery . I agree someone had to tell Deniz exactly that !!!! but I still think that it should not be Roman It`s very sad, that nobody else don`t cares of Deniz. But I agree with Zathras, "Roman`s help" pushes Deniz in the wrong direction .
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Post by butterfinger on Jul 31, 2010 13:33:32 GMT -5
Or maybe - just maybe - it pushes in exactly the right direction. Brings him to a point where he finally realizes that HE needs to act.
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Post by lety26 on Jul 31, 2010 13:35:47 GMT -5
Was Roman wrong in calling Deniz a loser? yes, I think he went overboard with that comment, but he was trying to get through to Deniz, since no one else wants to. WTF is wrong with Marian? He sees how badly Deniz is and instead of helping him he goes all judgemental on him? okay! I'll just call him Ozfail(like people or on youtube) for now. Yes he has a right to be angry, but not to turn his back on Deniz and I hated how he implied it was Roman's fault. Yes, he caused the pain but he's not responsible for Deniz's actions. Roman figured a bit of tough love might help. Remember Deniz used that on Roman sometimes, sometimes it worked other times it didn't. I do think he f-uped big time with that approach and from spoilers we definately know that he did. He'll probably feel much guiltier after, than he does now. I think right now Roman needs to show Deniz that he still cares because I don't think Deniz believes that anymore and I think that's what he was trying to do. I'm sure we'll see him be there for Deniz in the upcoming weeks, showing Deniz that he does indeed still love him. As for the not knowing why he cheated? hmmm I really wanted them to explain it but it seems like they won't, they'll just leave it as Marc brought back Roman's old feelings he acted on them but then realized that eventhough those feelings are there, his feelings for Deniz are much stronger and he can finally let go of the past.
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Post by butterfinger on Jul 31, 2010 13:37:41 GMT -5
Why would Deniz think that Roman doesn't care? Roman has been writing text messages all the time. "I am thinking about you. I miss you. Please forgive me. I love you. Roman." How can he be any clearer about what he wants?
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Post by lety26 on Jul 31, 2010 13:51:31 GMT -5
Because he doesn't trust him right now;it's hard to believe someone when you don't trust them. Remeber he heard Roman telling Marc he wanted to be with him while being in a relationship with him. He threw everything away because of his feelings for Marc and to Deniz that might have seemed like he didn't love him enough. Then, he found him with Marc in the locker room hours after he was telling him he loved him and wanted him back that would make anyone second guess what the person is saying. Sure he knows RoMa broke up because of him but he still feels unsure. ETA: Also last year, Deniz was clear in what he wanted he kept telling Roman he loved him, that he wanted him back but Roman didn't trust it. He believed it like he told Nina, but didn't trust it. It took Deniz giving up the Male Function contract for Roman to finally believe/trust it, I can see something like that happening again.
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Post by camjakefan on Jul 31, 2010 13:52:31 GMT -5
Yes people cheat it happens. Roman was human. But there is always an underlying reason for everything you do, not just cheating. I'm not saying he never loved Marc and he probably always will. he's his first love but as for being in love I don't think so. There is a difference and this time I think it was the familiarity and Roman being in such turmoil emotionally. I don't think the cheating would have happened if Roman wasn't in such a place emotionally. But that's my opinion.
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Post by camjakefan on Jul 31, 2010 14:02:07 GMT -5
Because he doesn't trust him right now, he might think what Roman is saying is true but doesn't quite believe it. Remeber he heard Roman telling Marc he wanted to be with him while being in a relationship with him. He threw everything away because of his feelings for Marc and to Deniz that might have seemed like he didn't love him enough. Then, he found him with Marc in the locker room hours after he was telling him he loved him and wanted him back that would make anyone second guess what the person is saying. Sure he knows RoMa broke up because of him but he still feels unsure. ETA: Also last year, Deniz was clear in what he wanted he kept telling Roman he loved him, that he wanted him back but Roman didn't trust it. He believed it like he told Nina, but didn't trust it. It took Deniz giving up the Male Function contract for Roman to finally believe/trust it, I can see something like that happening again. I agree with you. What did Deniz say after he found RoMa in the lockerroom? Why should he care about Roman when Roman doesn't care about him. He feels like Roman doesn't love him. He lost all the trust he had in Roman. He told Annette that he had trusted Roman and look where it got him. At the point they were in in their relationship I think Deniz couldn't fathom being with someone else or cheating. So I think in his mind Roman can't love him anymore.
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megi307
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Post by megi307 on Jul 31, 2010 14:26:47 GMT -5
Because he doesn't trust him right now, he might think what Roman is saying is true but doesn't quite believe it. Remeber he heard Roman telling Marc he wanted to be with him while being in a relationship with him. He threw everything away because of his feelings for Marc and to Deniz that might have seemed like he didn't love him enough. Then, he found him with Marc in the locker room hours after he was telling him he loved him and wanted him back that would make anyone second guess what the person is saying. Sure he knows RoMa broke up because of him but he still feels unsure. ETA: Also last year, Deniz was clear in what he wanted he kept telling Roman he loved him, that he wanted him back but Roman didn't trust it. He believed it like he told Nina, but didn't trust it. It took Deniz giving up the Male Function contract for Roman to finally believe/trust it, I can see something like that happening again. I agree with you. What did Deniz say after he found RoMa in the lockerroom? Why should he care about Roman when Roman doesn't care about him. He feels like Roman doesn't love him. He lost all the trust he had in Roman. He told Annette that he had trusted Roman and look where it got him. At the point they were in in their relationship I think Deniz couldn't fathom being with someone else or cheating. So I think in his mind Roman can't love him anymore. I think, Deniz still can`t imagine being with someone else. Case of Patrick, Deniz wanted sex with him, but he couldn`t because of Roman !!
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Post by Zathras on Jul 31, 2010 18:43:00 GMT -5
Or maybe - just maybe - it pushes in exactly the right direction. Brings him to a point where he finally realizes that HE needs to act. I can only see that point of view if you believe that Roman just has to push Deniz to hit rock bottom sooner. Deniz coming back from his depression can only come from within. Something has to snap inside himself that causes him to realize he has to fix the path his life has taken. I think that all Deniz heard was "loser". It just reinforces what he already feels about himself. Maybe we just disagree about what's constructive in this situation. Why would Deniz think that Roman doesn't care? Roman has been writing text messages all the time. "I am thinking about you. I miss you. Please forgive me. I love you. Roman." How can he be any clearer about what he wants? I see the others have said more, so I'll just say the first thing that came to my mind: What possible reason does Deniz have to trust anything that Roman says at this point? Roman destroyed any trust they had.
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Post by canadiansunshine on Jul 31, 2010 20:20:05 GMT -5
Or maybe - just maybe - it pushes in exactly the right direction. Brings him to a point where he finally realizes that HE needs to act. I can only see that point of view if you believe that Roman just has to push Deniz to hit rock bottom sooner. Deniz coming back from his depression can only come from within. Something has to snap inside himself that causes him to realize he has to fix the path his life has taken. I think that all Deniz heard was "loser". It just reinforces what he already feels about himself. Maybe we just disagree about what's constructive in this situation. Why would Deniz think that Roman doesn't care? Roman has been writing text messages all the time. "I am thinking about you. I miss you. Please forgive me. I love you. Roman." How can he be any clearer about what he wants? I see the others have said more, so I'll just say the first thing that came to my mind: What possible reason does Deniz have to trust anything that Roman says at this point? Roman destroyed any trust they had. First time posting on this section of the board! I post on YT at times but hard to put everything into so few words. Love the discussion here. I have to totally agree with Zathras. Roman completely dismantled any trust Deniz had in him systematically...cheating, lying, dishonesty, and Deniz having to find out by walking into their apartment hearing Roman say to Marc "I want to be with you" or something to that effect. Being called a loser by THAT person who caused all this misery in the first place will make him spiral out even more, because he is so vulnerable as it is right now. The last thing he needs is Roman intervening, because it's only going to make him feel worse and more disgusted with Roman and retaliate by harming himself even further. I think Roman needs to step back and let others handle the situation with Deniz, but letting Deniz know he is there for him, and pick up the pieces later. Roman holds no currency with Deniz right now, nor should he, after what he's done. I think Roman knows very well why he did what he did with Marc. He may not have known how to handle it better, but he cared enough about his old flame to cheat on someone he loved. I think the show did a great job in showing it wasn't just a one off thing, or a one night stand, that there were feelings and emotions at stake for both Roman and Marc; otherwise I'd be horrified about the kind of person Roman would be to hurt someone he loved so much. What I did wish Show did better was to show the loving dynamic between Marc and Roman more, so that we could see more of why he gave up everything with Deniz.
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Jul 31, 2010 23:27:52 GMT -5
First let me just say I’m not convinced Deniz wanted sex with Patrick. I think he wanted to feel anything other than miserable and Patrick just happened to be there offering him sex. The mistake he made was taking Patrick into the bedroom. I mean seriously Deniz has been living in he living room, eating, drinking, watching television, growing mold on his upper lip, and from the look of it sleeping there. Something in him should have known there was no way in hell he could have sex in that room, in that bed with anyone else. Especially given the fact that he still has visions of sugarplums and Roman and Marc making the beast with two backs in that very bed dancing in his head.
Roman loves Deniz of this I have absolutely no doubt. That said however Roman has to understand that right now Deniz doesn’t trust a word out of his mouth. Everything sounds like a hollow lie to Deniz right now. For weeks Roman lied to him, and even made him feel guilty for feeling jealous. For weeks Deniz believed him even though his own instincts were screaming at him. So that now, even when Roman tells the truth, to Deniz it sounds and feels like a lie. To Deniz how could Roman love him and take what they spent so long building and ruin it within a matter of weeks. Deniz wants to hurt and humiliate Roman, just as deeply and badly as he has been hurt and humiliated. (not a good idea to try this stoned off your ass, but I digress.)
Roman has to realize that his words aren’t enough, especially considering that he words have come crashing head long into his actions. And his actions of late have spoken volumes that could fill the library at Alexandria.
You have no idea how much I love you.
Great line and I believe true. Yet that didn’t stop Roman from giving into Marc. Or the fact that Roman can’t explain to anyone, himself included why he cheated in the first place.
Don’t throw everything away now.
Only to find Marc and Roman rutting around on the locker room floor hours later like two pigs.
Then to call Deniz a loser.
Harsh words especially considering that Deniz is the injured party and you’re looking for forgiveness. Not the best way to get someone who is hell bent on hurting you back to snap out of his self destructive state of mind. Deniz is high, pissed and hurt. He’s impulsive when he’s sober, now his inhibitions have been lowered and he’s mad as hell.
This my dear hearts this is a recipe for disaster,
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Post by Zathras on Aug 1, 2010 0:49:14 GMT -5
First time posting on this section of the board! I post on YT at times but hard to put everything into so few words. Love the discussion here. Welcome!
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Pedris2
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Post by Pedris2 on Aug 1, 2010 5:52:18 GMT -5
Then to call Deniz a loser. Harsh words especially considering that Deniz is the injured party and you’re looking for forgiveness. Not the best way to get someone who is hell bent on hurting you back to snap out of his self destructive state of mind. Deniz is high, pissed and hurt. He’s impulsive when he’s sober, now his inhibitions have been lowered and he’s mad as hell. This my dear hearts this is a recipe for disaster, I would not say that this is a recipe for disaster, but the awakening of a drug stupor. Roman said to Deniz, that is "loser" as an allusion to what he now carried. Roman said it absolutely clear, that ultimately the only one to suffer will Deniz. Yes, Deniz has the right to be angry, devastated and frustrated, but that he started taking drugs and behaving like an irresponsible brat, that's quite a different thing. It, that Roman said that he, Deniz is a loser, is perhaps the impulse for further negotiations. Just my opinion!!!
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margie
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Post by margie on Aug 1, 2010 9:46:20 GMT -5
I don't blame Marian for being furious with Deniz for being irresponsible and causing his business to be burned down. Deniz needs a serious wake up call cause like Roman said, all he is doing is hurting himself.
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Post by camjakefan on Aug 1, 2010 14:16:42 GMT -5
I understand why Roman said what he said. Deniz probably needs to hear this just not from Roman. Marian is the one that should have told Deniz this, but he's dealing with the break up from Jenny and now No.7 burning.
I think what Roman should have told Deniz is he wasn't a loser but Deniz will lose everything because he's only hurting himself in the long run. I think everything else he said was fine just the loser part.
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Post by canadiansunshine on Aug 1, 2010 15:30:43 GMT -5
First time posting on this section of the board! I post on YT at times but hard to put everything into so few words. Love the discussion here. Welcome! Thank you!
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Pedris2
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Post by Pedris2 on Aug 1, 2010 16:00:12 GMT -5
I'm sorry that Deniz had heard that he is just "loser", just from Roman, but he needed to hear this. I know that the word "loser" is very strong, but Roman right now heard from Marian, that Deniz again taking the drug. And yes he acknowledged that it is all his fault, though not quite, because nobody Deniz not forcing to take the drugs, so Roman at the moment, unfortunately, he said what he said. It that someone is "loser" is usually saying, just because of drugs.
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Post by camjakefan on Aug 2, 2010 12:49:52 GMT -5
I'm glad Annette told Roman it wasn't his fault Deniz was on coke. It maybe his fault he's feeling shitty but not for taking the coke. Oh Deniz my poor baby is so scared now. I wanted to smack that smug look off of Patrick's face when Deniz asks did they use a condom and he's like nah. You idiot.
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Pedris2
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Post by Pedris2 on Aug 2, 2010 13:25:32 GMT -5
I hope now Deniz finally realizes, what a senseless fatal mistake he made.
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