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Post by aussie54 on Sept 22, 2009 4:16:28 GMT -5
I'm late to the party, but I wanted to thank everyone; Ivan for the clips and screencaps (hope you had a great holiday), Sonnenschein for the re-cap and Tihkon and Nanna for the English sub-titles. And well, that wasn't as bad as I'd thought. Rebecca needs to die painfully right now, but if I ignore her, the episode was pretty okay. I thought it was good that Christian wanted to talk, even though he changed his mind afterwards. And Justus with Christian was strangely cute. It was adorable that he was so worried about Christian. I think I might become a Justus/Christian shipper. ;DYes to this! Sorry, Olli, but you're being a bit irritating at the moment, with all that Rebecca love.
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Post by ivaniv on Sept 22, 2009 5:23:07 GMT -5
Well Justus called him Christian and not Herr Mann, I am not sure Justus ever did that to anybody ;D Next thing they will duzen to each other ;D They sure make a better duo than Olli with Rebecca If they let Rebecca to hang around Olli to be more popular they achieved quite an opposite, she's dragging him down with her.
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Post by mona on Sept 22, 2009 6:51:05 GMT -5
I didn't read it as jealousy. I don't know if it's not the same but to me it looked more like sadness that someone else spends time with Olli even though he needed him a lot in that moment. (Like everything he has/had is slipping away or moving on that day). He thought Olli would be there for him, that was really sad when he noticed Olli wanted to meet Rebecca but maybe Christian will realize that sometimes he also has to "wake up" Olli. Or on another level, I didn't mind it maybe because for once Christian saw that he needs Olli and that he could be at fault a little because he always pushed him away and didn't want Olli to care too much. Now, for the first time, Olli didn't really do that, he just walked away without pushing too much. That's nothing I hold against Christian but overall I think it's a bit true that he always seemed annoyed when Olli was there automatically but as I thought, deep inside he loved it and was today disappointed when it didn't happen. Bravo Mona! My sentiments exactly. It seems Christian wants his cake and eat it too! Olli is supposed to be there for him automatically when he needs him to, and leave him alone when he doesn't want to be "smothered." So, my question is, while Olli is "being" all that to Christian, who is there for Olli? Olli might not have the heart condition but we all know Olli is extremely affectionate, and Christian doesn't meet this need at all. In the bedroom scene, Olli offered to just cuddle and Christian totally pushed him away. Looked for a second like Olli was afraid to touch him for fear that Christian might get physical with him. I don't like the physical thing as well and I wish Christian would stop it. Olli said it was alright and I agree about the cuddling. That's why I really wish for a scene where they cuddle without Christian looking like he wants to vomit. Olli didn't know what was going on in bed at first and of course he didn't get why Christian was turning away, so he didn't stop. In fact, Olli seemed like he wanted to cuddle before and Christian was the one who thought of sex. I think this could make Olli feel not-loved in some way and afraid to see what Christians mood is before he's touching him at all. I understand Christian but he should try harder to not blame Olli on his problems. I mean, what is Olli supposed to say now? Instead of saying how everything will be alright etc.?
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Post by mona on Sept 22, 2009 6:53:46 GMT -5
Well Justus called him Christian and not Herr Mann, I am not sure Justus ever did that to anybody ;D Next thing they will duzen to each other ;D They sure make a better duo than Olli with Rebecca If they let Rebecca to hang around Olli to be more popular they achieved quite an opposite, she's dragging him down with her. Yep, totally. She's not good for Olli or anyone else. She was good with David. Where is David anyway? He could be a good friend for Christian at the castle. This shows how bad Rebecca really is because normally Olli is good for everyone! I even like Lydia when Olli is there. A few month ago I was really worried and annoyed about Lydia but right now I'd rather watch an Olli/Lydia affair than a friendship between him and Rebecca. Could work as a "Lydia needs a father replacement" when she remembered Matthias when Olli was doing the Pflaster-thing. Justus is sweet, he even touched Christian when he was going. I buy a friendship there and I would really love a scene where Justus tells Olli what happened and that he's worried for Christian.
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Post by rhiannonhero on Sept 22, 2009 8:31:31 GMT -5
Well Justus called him Christian and not Herr Mann, I am not sure Justus ever did that to anybody ;D Next thing they will duzen to each other ;D They sure make a better duo than Olli with Rebecca If they let Rebecca to hang around Olli to be more popular they achieved quite an opposite, she's dragging him down with her. I vote yes to anything Justus/Christian related! And while I don't seem to share the same level of anti-Olli sentiment as many on the board right now, I do think Rebecca will not be made more popular by mixing her up in Ollian's business.
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Post by rhiannonhero on Sept 22, 2009 8:55:00 GMT -5
I mean, what is Olli supposed to say now? Instead of saying how everything will be alright etc.? Yeah. Olli has been in a no win situation with Christian for a long time now. Christian won't be honest with him about how he's feeling, or what is happening with him, and then Olli has to pay the price for not being psychic. Also, Christian wants it both ways -- he wants Olli's devotion and attention, but he also wants to rail at Olli for being overly coddling or worrying too much about Christian's health. So far, the biggest failing I can find in Olli's behavior is a lack of psychic powers and for talking too soon when Christian was nearly going to confess what was going on with him...but even then, Olli realized that, hey, that wasn't the entire issue, and he asked again, and Christian totally chickened out. It wasn't because Olli didn't care enough or something like that, but because Christian didn't want to be honest with him, and I fail to see how that is Olli's fault. There are so many mixed messages that Christian sends out, and Olli gets in trouble with Christian if he doesn't respect Christian's verbal statements ("I'm fine. All is okay. No, there isn't a problem. It's just kiddie stuff. No I'm not upset.") and, in a way, I have to say that's how it should be handled to a large extent. Olli makes it clear that he cares, that he's interested, but he can't force Christian to be upfront or honest with him, and if he doesn't choose to believe Christian's verbal statements, then there's a lack of trust there that is worrisome. So, what I see a lot of people saying here is that Olli is to blame for trusting Christian to be a grown-up and to be honest with his boyfriend about what is going on with him. But! When Olli doesn't trust Christian to be a grown-up or to be honest with him, then people (and Christian) are angry with him for treating Christian like a child. So, which is it? Should Olli trust Christian and expect him to be an adult? Or should he not trust Christian and treat him like a child? Imagine how it would've been different if the following had happened: Olli approaches Christian, hugs him from behind like always, asks if he's okay, and Christian says, "No." Olli, still worried says, "And everything is really okay?" And Christian says, "Well, actually, no. I've got the day off and I really need to talk to you." And Rebecca trots up, "Ready to go?" And Olli would have so absolutely said, "Rebecca, sorry, but we'll have to reschedule. Christian and I need to be alone for awhile." Ta da!!!! No Rebecca lifting and touching! No Christian alone and moping!! No Olli being lashed out at in bed!! Amazing how Christian being honest with Olli would've changed all of that. So, yeah, I'm basically of the opinion that Olli can't be judged too harshly for actually trusting and respecting his boyfriend, and for assuming that his boyfriend is an adult. Though, yes, experience should tell him otherwise by this point, but we all know that Christian doesn't react well to Olli not respecting his lies verbal statements, and considers it to be emasculating and coddling. So, yes, bad Olli for not being psychic! And bad Olli for respecting his boyfriend! He should totally do better with those things!!! ;D But, seriously, I do think Olli could've been more observant of Christian, and a more considerate in his behavior with Rebecca. And, also, he shouldn't allow himself to be so easily distracted by the promise of sex...though looking at Christian, who wouldn't be easily distracted by such a promise?? Also, I am deeply concerned by Olli's need to be needed and how that could play out if he isn't getting that satisfied at home -- both emotionally and sexually. I could easily see some emotional infidelity of a sort -- where Olli puts someone else's problems above Christian because it makes him feel so good to be needed and wanted in that way. I think this situation with Rebecca definitely highlights that. If Olli hadn't wanted to satisfy that need of his because it wasn't getting satisfied at home, then I don't think we'd all be cursing his lack of psychic powers, because his focus would still be on Christian, and he'd have noticed that things were not okay. Being helpless to help Christian (because it is unwanted) and being helpless to help Olivia (because she's a lost cause), has definitely got Olli in a position where he pretty requires another focus for that bottomless pit of need-to-be-needed-ness, and it looks like Rebecca is it for now. What a mess.
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kes
Full Member
Without community, there is no liberation. Audre Lorde
Posts: 1,583
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Post by kes on Sept 22, 2009 9:00:36 GMT -5
Well Justus called him Christian and not Herr Mann, I am not sure Justus ever did that to anybody ;D Next thing they will duzen to each other ;D They sure make a better duo than Olli with Rebecca If they let Rebecca to hang around Olli to be more popular they achieved quite an opposite, she's dragging him down with her. I vote yes to anything Justus/Christian related! And while I don't seem to share the same level of anti-Olli sentiment as many on the board right now, I do think Rebecca will not be made more popular by mixing her up in Ollian's business. I agree, Rhia -- I love the dynamic between Justus and Christian -- it's sweet. Even as friends, it would be interesting to play out, particularly as Justus has been such a one-sided character. If they are going to focus on the Lahnsteins, then they should focus on the downstairs and not just the upstairs. One of my favorite scenes of late was that in which Justus was laughing at Ansgar with the other staff behind his back. It was interesting sweet and delightful, one of those scenes good writers add, not because they are related to "Plot" but because they flesh out mood and character. Anyway, I've always loved Justus for my own reasons, but yesterday I truly, with judgment liked the dynamic. ______________________ As for who's wrong and who's right -- I'm with Zam that the writers were right yesterday in giving us interesting charactrers, human characters. I don't agree with him when he states that characters essentially need to retain a static core to be interesting. Growth can be interesting, too. (I'd argue that static becomes boring after a while.) But people make mistakes, whether they are growing or not. They can become the Llama and still be a jerk in a relationship. So anyway, yesterday worked for me, but that last scene was so sad. I don't know why I was as affected by it as I was. I suppose I saw Christian at the beginning: laughed at by the workers (very subtle, well done in the scene -- not loud, but apparant) failing in front of this woman his lover has kissed (even if he knows there is not any real interest there) -- he's really lost a lot. It's going to take him a while to gain it back. As for Olli, I'd actually like to see him screw up here and get his own struggle. We've commented before on his need to help (or control) as the case may be. He's doing so well: bringing his life together, running a club, trying to help a very tetchy partner (when it comes to help). His weekness, to some degree, seems to be that he needs to be needed. I don't know - -but Rebecca may very well work here. She could play into his faults and he could trip into her arms, only to come back a stronger person for it. (Not static.) Anyway, I like both Christian and Olli because they are so human -- and (sorry Zam!) not completely static.
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Post by rhiannonhero on Sept 22, 2009 9:31:18 GMT -5
I suppose I saw Christian at the beginning: laughed at by the workers (very subtle, well done in the scene -- not loud, but apparant) That was great! I mean, it was horrible, but it added a great extra humiliation to the scene. It wasn't to the extent that Justus would have rebuked them, but it was enough for Christian to notice and feel the burn of it. Ouch!!!! I would absolutely love that. I think that you and I might have a different idea of what it means for a character to be static at the core, because what you're describing here is exactly what I would imagine a character who is static at the core doing. Coming back a stronger person doesn't necessarily mean that his need-to-be-needed would be gone, and it is unlikely that it would be, since that which drives people rarely changes. It would probably mean that he'd find a better way to channel that energy, and not make the same mistake twice. (All speculation here! Not spoiler based!) I shouldn't speak for Zam, but I have a feeling you've misinterpreted what he meant by saying that the main character traits are static. I can only speak for myself, but the main character traits of anyone, real person or character, must remain static for them to remain who they are as a person. How they express those character traits might change, but they are still there. For example, an alcoholic might stop drinking, but they usually throw themselves fully into something else -- A(lcoholics)A(nonymous) meetings, their job, being the best dad in the entire world, becoming a fitness junkie, etc. The personality traits that led to excessive drinking will still be expressed elsewhere, but hopefully in a more healthy way. So, in one huge way, they are "changed", but in another, deeper, core way they are the same. For example, say that Olli did trip into Rebecca's arms because of his need to be needed, and he came back from that a better person. Maybe he'd focus his need to be needed on becoming a father and being the best dad of all time, or maybe he'd focus his need to be needed on being some kind of foster parent/Big Brother to troubled teens, or something similar, but his core trait of needing to be needed, and wanting to feel like he's important to someone in a vital way, isn't going to go away or vanish. It can just be channeled in a better way than messing up his life by sleeping with Rebecca. (Again, speculation only!!!!!) This is probably all steeped in the studies I did in psychology and personality back in the day, though. Basically, what I learned is that people's behaviors change...but people don't. And writing good characters requires that they be allowed to be human enough for it to be the same situation there, too. Otherwise, you have a blank canvas and not a person, imo.
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Post by Flippityfloppityflip on Sept 22, 2009 9:35:41 GMT -5
I mean, what is Olli supposed to say now? Instead of saying how everything will be alright etc.? Yeah. Olli has been in a no win situation with Christian for a long time now. Christian won't be honest with him about how he's feeling, or what is happening with him, and then Olli has to pay the price for not being psychic. Also, Christian wants it both ways -- he wants Olli's devotion and attention, but he also wants to rail at Olli for being overly coddling or worrying too much about Christian's health. So far, the biggest failing I can find in Olli's behavior is a lack of psychic powers and for talking too soon when Christian was nearly going to confess what was going on with him...but even then, Olli realized that, hey, that wasn't the entire issue, and he asked again, and Christian totally chickened out. It wasn't because Olli didn't care enough or something like that, but because Christian didn't want to be honest with him, and I fail to see how that is Olli's fault. There are so many mixed messages that Christian sends out, and Olli gets in trouble with Christian if he doesn't respect Christian's verbal statements ("I'm fine. All is okay. No, there isn't a problem. It's just kiddie stuff. No I'm not upset.") and, in a way, I have to say that's how it should be handled to a large extent. Olli makes it clear that he cares, that he's interested, but he can't force Christian to be upfront or honest with him, and if he doesn't choose to believe Christian's verbal statements, then there's a lack of trust there that is worrisome. So, what I see a lot of people saying here is that Olli is to blame for trusting Christian to be a grown-up and to be honest with his boyfriend about what is going on with him. But! When Olli doesn't trust Christian to be a grown-up or to be honest with him, then people (and Christian) are angry with him for treating Christian like a child. So, which is it? Should Olli trust Christian and expect him to be an adult? Or should he not trust Christian and treat him like a child? Imagine how it would've been different if the following had happened: Olli approaches Christian, hugs him from behind like always, asks if he's okay, and Christian says, "No." Olli, still worried says, "And everything is really okay?" And Christian says, "Well, actually, no. I've got the day off and I really need to talk to you." And Rebecca trots up, "Ready to go?" And Olli would have so absolutely said, "Rebecca, sorry, but we'll have to reschedule. Christian and I need to be alone for awhile." Ta da!!!! No Rebecca lifting and touching! No Christian alone and moping!! No Olli being lashed out at in bed!! Amazing how Christian being honest with Olli would've changed all of that. So, yeah, I'm basically of the opinion that Olli can't be judged too harshly for actually trusting and respecting his boyfriend, and for assuming that his boyfriend is an adult. Though, yes, experience should tell him otherwise by this point, but we all know that Christian doesn't react well to Olli not respecting his lies verbal statements, and considers it to be emasculating and coddling. So, yes, bad Olli for not being psychic! And bad Olli for respecting his boyfriend! He should totally do better with those things!!! ;D But, seriously, I do think Olli could've been more observant of Christian, and a more considerate in his behavior with Rebecca. And, also, he shouldn't allow himself to be so easily distracted by the promise of sex...though looking at Christian, who wouldn't be easily distracted by such a promise?? Also, I am deeply concerned by Olli's need to be needed and how that could play out if he isn't getting that satisfied at home -- both emotionally and sexually. I could easily see some emotional infidelity of a sort -- where Olli puts someone else's problems above Christian because it makes him feel so good to be needed and wanted in that way. I think this situation with Rebecca definitely highlights that. If Olli hadn't wanted to satisfy that need of his because it wasn't getting satisfied at home, then I don't think we'd all be cursing his lack of psychic powers, because his focus would still be on Christian, and he'd have noticed that things were not okay. Being helpless to help Christian (because it is unwanted) and being helpless to help Olivia (because she's a lost cause), has definitely got Olli in a position where he pretty requires another focus for that bottomless pit of need-to-be-needed-ness, and it looks like Rebecca is it for now. What a mess. Excellent post Rhiannonhero. I tried to put across some of these thoughts earlier, but you have done a way better job. Like us all Olli can only take a certain amount of knock backs. He has learnt from experience that if he puts too much pressure on Christian he will explode. So if he's asked not once, not twice and anaother for good measure and still not got a proper answer then it's best to leave well alone until Christian feels himself ready to talk. In fact the last time Christian blew, didn't he storm off to the woods with Gregor! We knew that with a little more of a nudge Christian would have talked to Olli, but as you said Rhiannonhero, Olli's not psychic and dealt with the situation accordingly using past experience. But I still think the scene at the castle was being used by the writers more to make Christian look weak (not being able to help lift the tree) and feeling down and needing Olli whilst Olli was portrayed as strong (able to lift Rebecca with ease - not that she's a heavyweight) and Olli was feeling carefree and he needed to help out a chum whilst doing something he loves, which is shopping. That's why I'm nowhere near as bothered as a lot of people that Olli is hanging out with Rebecca. I love him to bits but Olli is at the moment a bit of a flittertigibbet and so far Rebecca comes across as one as well, so they are kind of kindred spirits. Surely people would prefer this kind of Olli rather than princess, evening gowns, fanzine obssessed Olli? Kiss or no kiss.
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Post by ivaniv on Sept 22, 2009 10:26:42 GMT -5
Well I do not mind Olli's obsession with princess and her clothes, one has to have some hobbies. Or is too gay? Also I am not going to take sides in this latest situation. They both have their faults and make mistakes, that makes them normal. They are practically in the same situation as they were before Christian's boxing match. So they did not really learn from that, but people seldom do ;D
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Post by rhiannonhero on Sept 22, 2009 10:44:35 GMT -5
I, too, enjoy his obsession with the princess and her clothes.
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mitsaso
Full Member
All the naysayers can bite us!
Posts: 1,267
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Post by mitsaso on Sept 22, 2009 10:58:37 GMT -5
What a great episode!!! I loved how imperfect the boys were, driving a small wedge in their relationship, without any of them being actually out of character (although the Olli twirling Rebecca around was a little too much- Olli is too innocent for his own good, but don't fret. I'm making a Christian vs. Rebecca fanvid for youtube these days! ). And everything was so cute, especially Christian's expression was he watched the boxing match, I just wanted to hug that sports obsessed boy!!! There is nothing I can say on the hot scene at the end that hasn't been said already. I hope this storyline gets followed upon, at least for today. There was one major plothole though!!! How the hell can Christian grab that delightful ass and NOT get turned on?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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Post by chrolliforever7 on Sept 22, 2009 11:22:39 GMT -5
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Zam
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Post by Zam on Sept 22, 2009 20:53:39 GMT -5
Rhi, you were completely on the money with regard to my static comment.
Let's use the comedy Friends as an example. Monica - Anal-retentive, OCD, clean-freak, controlling, etc. For the ten years that show was on the air, we could always count on her to be those things despite everything else that happened to them. That trait was static, though Monica's emotions and life-situations changed. It's how her piece fit into the puzzle.
Tanja is an EXCELLENT example of a static character on the show. She may love her son fiercely and be good to him, but everyone else in her life serves a "purpose". She manipulates those around her to make "what is good for Tanja" happen. Sometimes she fails, but she will always circle back to that core quality in her behavior.
It's not a bad thing. It's what fans of long-running shows tune in for day after day and year after year. They have expectations of long-running characters.
That is why if Christian were to have a one-night stand with Charlie, fans would cry foul. His "statis" is his opinion of monogamy, and his devotion to the person he's with. The show might bend it a little bit, but they cannot break it without betraying "The Character" or without alienating their audience.
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Post by chrolliforever7 on Sept 23, 2009 13:37:40 GMT -5
A quick little video I just made about this ep ;D ;D
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scarpien
Junior Member
Olli & Christian Forever
Posts: 491
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Post by scarpien on Sept 23, 2009 15:06:30 GMT -5
A quick little video I just made about this ep ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I ain't touchin' dat one!! ;D
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Post by chrolliforever7 on Sept 23, 2009 16:28:10 GMT -5
ahhaha its GREAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!
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mitsaso
Full Member
All the naysayers can bite us!
Posts: 1,267
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Post by mitsaso on Sept 23, 2009 19:00:25 GMT -5
A quick little video I just made about this ep ;D ;D Hahaha!!! cheeky!!!
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Post by brownsugar on Sept 23, 2009 22:07:24 GMT -5
A quick little video I just made about this ep ;D ;D Chrolli...I love it!! But there ain't no way in hell you wouldn't get turned on with someone like Olli straddled on top of you.
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Post by chrolliforever7 on Sept 23, 2009 22:09:00 GMT -5
A quick little video I just made about this ep ;D ;D Chrolli...I love it!! But there ain't no way in hell that you wouldn't get turned on with someone like Olli straddled on top of ya!! hahaha trueeee, trueee, VERY VERY true. but that song kept popping into my head while watching that ep, so i just HAD to make a little video using it. XD XD Isn't it hilarious???
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