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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 19, 2009 8:31:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't rule out that Olli tends to gravitate towards man who give him the anchoring and boundaries that he can't give himself. He might not overtly like the but maybe he might still feel a subconcious need for them/realize that they are necessary for something deeper and more real. I completely and totally agree. *nods*
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 8:38:11 GMT -5
Besides, being with somebody more closeminded than himself will always let him look like the more openminded one. I actually think that Olli wouldn't take it well AT ALL if he was ever with somebody who is just as or even more adventurous than he is.
BTW, I actually don't think that Olli is a natural strayer. Yes he did cheat on Tom but he didn't cheat on him out of boredom or for thrills. He cheated as revenge because Tom had hurt him/cheated first. After he didn't just sleep with Ulli, he slept with Ulli after weeks and weeks of swearing nothing was going on and that Olli was being paranoid. Other than that Olli actually was a fairly devoted boyfriend.
Actually it was *Ulli* who came thisclose to cheating on Tom because Tom didn't pay him enough attention (he woke up in a guy's bed after having blacked out and the guy had to tell him that nothing had happened).
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Post by mona on Jun 19, 2009 9:07:32 GMT -5
The physicality of smarmy Lukas putting his paw on Olli , might have triggered the " Mine!" reflex. ;D That is cute ("Mine") After sleeping a night over the episode I decided I like jealousy more than no jealousy at all. I have no problem if he gets aggressive at Lukas but he shouldn't be too rough to Olli in his jealousy, then it's sweet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 9:14:37 GMT -5
I sort of have a "MINE!!!" complex with certain things like my best friend sometimes I get really possessive of him and since Olli and Christian are not only lovers they are like each others' best friend as well I think it is sort of double edged.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 10:01:31 GMT -5
One of the most fascinating (to me) thing about this fight are the different reactions.
() The German fans seem to take the fight a lot more seriously. () The youtube fans seem to focus mostly on the "my employee" line (as in generally considering that Olli's mistake)
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 19, 2009 10:10:04 GMT -5
Lola, I agree that Olli is not a natural strayer. I didn't mean to give that impression, if I did. I actually think that Olli is incredibly emotionally monogamous. I just think that his values with regards to flirting and sexuality are not as tied to his emotional fidelity as it is for Christian. In other words, I do not think that sex = love for Olli, while I totally think that for Christian sex is pretty heavily tied into love. It may not equal love, but it comes darn close. I wish I knew German, Lola, and could read the German board.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 10:19:27 GMT -5
Agreed. I think Olli is very capable of sex for fun (Timo...). But even though he can have sex without love I don't think that he is the kind who would have straying sex in a relationship (out of boredom or whatever). And even Olli realizes that sex, even without love is cheating. He might use sex to express certain emotions (like deep misery when he cheated on Tom; though I think even that is doubtful in now with Christian because his feelings for Christian are even deeper than the ones for Tom; me thinks that chances are that it would be more like with Ulli, he might even try to cheat but chances are he wouldn't be able to go through with it, even in an exteme situation). But to me the casual flirting is not what I see as the danger. To me it's a "his bark is worse than his bite" situation. At least when it comes to actual sex with somebody else. (if Christian defines flirting as cheating that is his own problem; especially since the majority of the world I think would agree and at least lean closer to sex equals cheating than to flirting equals cheating) I guess I just think that even despite his past Olli is way more attached to Christian than people give him credit for sometimes. The 194 replies and counting discussion on the episode in German can be found here.
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 19, 2009 10:30:22 GMT -5
One of the most fascinating (to me) thing about this fight are the different reactions. () The German fans seem to take the fight a lot more seriously. () The youtube fans seem to focus mostly on the "my employee" line (as in generally considering that Olli's mistake) Possibly it has to do with several things, reflecting cultural differences, but since the obvious 'evidential' difference is the language (German vs English), might it have anything to do with the difference in 'semantic territory' covered by the words "Mitarbeiter" and "employee"? Of course, the English word has the strong, unmistakable connotation of subordination. We would say "colleague" or "co-worker" if we didn't want to convey that. If "Mitarbieter" has a less definite / weaker sense of subordination, possibly including the 'territory' of the English word "co-worker" (i e, it's equivalent, derivationally), then possibly this explains some of the difference in reaction, that you report, Lola. I e, then, a question to the German speakers: is there a similar difference between "Angestellter" (which, as we know, really got Christian going!) and "Mitarbeiter" as between "employee" and "co-worker"?
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on Jun 19, 2009 10:35:26 GMT -5
One of the most fascinating (to me) thing about this fight are the different reactions. () The German fans seem to take the fight a lot more seriously. () The youtube fans seem to focus mostly on the "my employee" line (as in generally considering that Olli's mistake) Possibly it has to do with several things, reflecting cultural differences, but since the obvious 'evidential' difference is the language (German vs English), might it have anything to do with the difference in 'semantic territory' covered by the words "Mitarbeiter" and "employee"? The English word has a strong, unmistakable connotation of subordination. We would say "colleague" or "co-worker" if we didn't want to convey that. If "Mitarbieter" has a less definite / weaker sense of subordination, possibly including the 'territory' of the English word "co-worker" (i e, it's equivalent, derivationally), then possibly this explains some of the difference in reaction, that you report, Lola. I e, then, a question to the German speakers: is there a similar difference between "Angestellter" (which, as we know, really got Christian going!) and "Mitarbeiter" as between "employee" and "co-worker"? -I was thinking the exact same thing!
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 10:35:29 GMT -5
Despite the word Mitarbeiter literally meaning "one who works with me" I think in the context the superior/inferior distinction was still very clear.
I actually think that maybe the German fans react more to tone and the tone of Christian was a lot harsher (both with the guy and with Olli in the end) than has been customary in those type of fights. Germans also seemed to react a lot more badly to Christian snapping the towel at Olli. (comparably the youtube fans seemed to focus more on the broken glass than on the towel)
Meanwhile at least the vibe of a lot of the youtube comments seemed to be as if Olli calling Christian an employee was really the only thing questionable/bothersome that went on this episode and the rest was fairly normal drama or even cute jealousy. Kinda like a lot of the things that the Germans reacted to strongly flew right over their heads. Maybe different cultural backgrounds at work?
Maybe the Germans were more likely to perceive the towel as some form of physical attack, minor as it might be?
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on Jun 19, 2009 10:45:23 GMT -5
Were the German viewers at all concerned about Olli throwing the apron @ Christian in 159? That could be perceived as a physical attack too, if it hadn't flown past Chris. And in 160, when Chris kind of smacked his money pouch against Olli's chest...were they unsettled by that action?
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 10:48:46 GMT -5
Like I said, I think it was more the overall tone of these scenes. But there seemed to be an overall impression that those scenes weren't fun to watch at all. Too mean spirited maybe? And the overall discussion being more on whether Olli's actions excused this degree of mean spiritedness.
Personally, I think it is most likely bad directing as opposed a new storyline trend.
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nryabenko
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Post by nryabenko on Jun 19, 2009 10:51:01 GMT -5
This is just my opinion: The breaking of the glass, shows that he was more upset (with the whole situtation) especially with Olli was showing Luckas out. Then making Luckas sit down and drink his dame juice.
Throwing the towl in my opinion is more of an FU. It says: Take your flirting and yourself and FU off.
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 19, 2009 10:51:47 GMT -5
I do think it's been made clear -- in particular, at the breakfast conversation between Christian and Lydia -- that tension has been a-building, so, given Christian's 'volatility', I don't think his tone is "unprepared".
As for the towel-throwing: for me, this is "symbolic" violence and for that very reason shows the perpetrator to be controlling any violent impulses his anger / frustration may be generating.
But as you say, Lola, cultual differences certainly matter and the USA nowadays -- as everyone recognizes -- is very schizophrenic about violence (like sex): on the one hand, it's very politically incorrect to act out any violent impulses "physically", but the culture (in its adolescent male aspects, which are oddly, very influential) still finds violence very, very attractive.
In any case, for us, throwing a soft hand-towel at your (male!) lover wouldn't count -- you just wouldn't be taken seriously in the land of drive-by shooting and where government is conducted by and for the NRA!
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 11:01:21 GMT -5
I guess context makes the differences. Not what I do, but under what circumstances. Punching somebody during a playfull brawl, in a hightened emotional state (like Christian punching Gregor over their father's death) or punching somebody in an effort to exert control.
My guess is that the towel came across like a double attack. He attacks Olli with words by accusing him of prostituting himself and then emphasizes it by snapping the towel and then says that he finds that repulsive/gagworthy.
Again, maybe my interpretation is wrong, but it did seem like a lot of people felt that Christian was stepping in a line there? Or maybe more a feeling that this argument was more mean spirting and cold as opposed to passionate like their arguments have been previously.
The thread is fairly long, so it's possible that people withdrew from that position as the discusison progressed, but a bunch initial reactions seemed to be along those lines (with a lot of people calling writing sheenanigans rather than really blaming Christian for it).
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on Jun 19, 2009 11:03:48 GMT -5
In any case, for us, throwing a soft, hand-towel at your (male!) lover wouldn't count -- you just wouldn't be taken seriously in the land of drive-by shooting and where government is conducted by and for the NRA! OMG! hehehe! ;D
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on Jun 19, 2009 11:07:31 GMT -5
I have no idea y, but the ep just didn't seem right to me. I can't pinpoint what made me not enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed so many others. It definitely wasn't the towel assault though.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 11:09:26 GMT -5
Hehe, many on the German board obviously felt the same way and called out of character writing. They even did an analysis about all the lines that bothered them. ;D
(btw, I don't mean to say that the others thought that the towel mean "OMG, Christian is beating Olli", just that it seemed additionally mean spirited and that did cross a new line; like that Christian would have to be really in a bad mood that he would do something along those lines)
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nryabenko
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Post by nryabenko on Jun 19, 2009 11:27:36 GMT -5
Please. The towel throwing in the Unites States means FU and your flirting. I'm sick of you, the flirting and everything at the moment.
The braking of the glass is what got me. I felt and knew that Christian was really made about the guy flirting with Olli and Olli not doing anything about it.
What really got to me was Christian accusing Olli of having a new boyfriend. That was hitting below the belt.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 19, 2009 11:30:42 GMT -5
But it's not set in the United States. Neither the characters nor the writers are from the US.
Different countries have different body language. Kinda like "thumbs up" being a version of "fuck you" in some countries.
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on Jun 19, 2009 11:43:51 GMT -5
This is kind of weird, but I luv the little hand movements that Olli, and other Germans do, when they say, "Toi, toi, toi!"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2009 11:52:11 GMT -5
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Post by chrollifan on Jun 19, 2009 11:55:23 GMT -5
Or maybe more a feeling that this argument was more mean spirting and cold as opposed to passionate like their arguments have been previously. It's the impression what I got, I didn't felt the connection between characters in this scene. It wasn't endearing at all, just mean and I had to ask at the end how they will go further.
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Post by TerrorHaeschen on Jun 19, 2009 12:24:42 GMT -5
1st post. (yay)
Christians "new boyfriend" comment was just biting sarcasm and throwing the towel at Olli was his way of saying "f...y...". Nothing more. It's really not a sudden act of violence imho.
The writing bothers me though. Olli seemed somehow slightly out of character. His reaction to Christians jealousy just didn't seem right to me yesterday...
My 2 cents and btw. hello everyone... =)
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on Jun 19, 2009 12:35:01 GMT -5
Hi, Missplastique!
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