Christian & Oliver, 18.06.2009, video

[tihkon2]

German Clip:



Megaupload www.megaupload.com/?d=VOTXY3SD

[tihkon2]

Wow, that was some episode today!

The fight was awesome and Lukas is a douchebag!

[Deleted]

I concur! I am guessing you expected someone to post here so I will!

Didn't understand most of what was said but I love the boys even when I can't understand

[tihkon2]

yep cj4,

that's what I was hoping for!

We just finished going over the translation, it should be around an hour or so til it's up, if everything goes well.

[Rita]

Jo and Thore did the best they could with the material but I wasn’t completely feeling it on the first viewing (though that may have more to do with how frazzled I am because of other things right now). At least not the same way I did with the June 3 episode.

First I was more on Olli’s side. Then on Christian’s. I still can’t decide, and this time I feel like I should choose a side.

Olli seems to be downplaying a lot of things lately (due to work stress?), and really trying a bit too much to please everyone. His only “crime” today though is that he introduced Christian as co-worker. This too may be my own personal issue; I have a need to be acknowledged (sometimes a bit too much) and have been slighted more than once.

The critic? Everyone makes clear from the beginning that he’s a bit too self-confident/conceited. Maybe it comes with the job description. He was disrespectful towards Christian so Christian was rightfully a bit disrespectful towards him. The tone of voice, keeping his hands in his pockets. I don’t blame Christian. But as far as I can see, Olli wasn’t flirting with the guy in any way at all. To me, Olli mostly seemed apprehensive.

It’s Olivia’s “job” to plant the seeds of suspicion every time and every chance she’s got. I love to hate her.

I try to think of reasons for why Christian let her comments get to him to the extent they did today because I think Christian’s behavior returning to No Limits is mostly due to her. Seems a bit uncharacteristic to him because when has he ever cared about what Olivia has to say. Maybe it was just the general tone of the episode; it leaned heavily on the conflict (I’m not sure if that’s the correct English expression. What I mean is that they wanted to make the whole episode about conflict and conflict only). No sweet scenes in between. I bet Christian’s going to calm down pretty quickly though.

What makes this fight different from the June3-June 4 one? Normally, I would like to have a reference point in a past episode to point out to, but now I just can’t see it. I don’t think this was as well balanced from a writing point of view as the previous fight but I guess we’ll have to wait till tomorrow to see the big picture.

Spoiler: though Olli firing Christian is starting to make a bit more sense now. Before today, I really couldn’t see how they could do that without it seeming really abrupt. Even if I have never in real life considered it a good idea to work at the same place with your partner.

[tihkon2]

Today's dramatic episode with English Subtitles.



Danke Nanna!

[jj8899]

thanks

[flippa]

thanks so much for the translation you two I didn't catch most of the argument at the end so it was good to see that clearly. Am even more excited for whatever fallout happens tomorrow!

[tihkon2]

Flips,

What's it like? 2 in the morning there? ;D

Yeah, when we were going over the initial translation I was like "Oo! No she didn't!!" "OMG Chrissy!" etc....

I love the character of Olivia, but she was a nasty little snake today. She knew exactly how to prey on Christian's innocent little mind. ;D

And that Lukas was a total dickface. I wanted to force him to drink that damned Papaya juice myself. He was soooooo condecending towards Christian.

[flippa]

Jun 18, 2009 18:56:15 GMT -5 tihkon2 said:

Flips,

What's it like? 2 in the morning there? ;D

Yeah, when we were going over the initial translation I was like "Oo! No she didn't!!" "OMG Chrissy!" etc....

I love the character of Olivia, but she was a nasty little snake today. She knew exactly how to prey on Christian's innocent little mind. ;D

And that Lukas was a total dickface. I wanted to force him to drink that damned Papaya juice myself. He was soooooo condecending towards Christian.

It's 1am and I'm signing off now cos I HAVE to sleep ;D But just had to say- totally agree with you here! I'd have shoved a papaya up his ass if I were him- plus I'd be on the phone to the paper to tell them of their journalist's lack of integrity...!

Flips "neverfreaksout" signing off...

[Nitty]

Thank you everyone, for the clips and translations today!

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2009 17:38:00 GMT -5 tihkon2 said:

yep cj4,

that's what I was hoping for!

We just finished going over the translation, it should be around an hour or so til it's up, if everything goes well.

Yay! Sorry I had to go home and then I had to eat so I only just got to reply to what you said what 2 hours ago?

It is now almost 7:00 so I am very excited to watch the translated version going to do that right now.

Danke to you and Nanna for this

Hopefully tomorrow will be just as good and maybe Lukas will get his comuppence at some point, probably not but one can hope right?

[rhiannonhero]

Thanks to everyone!! Nanna, Ivan, Tihkon, and Dutchy you guys are so super awesome!

I posted this over on the other thread, but thought I'd put it here, too, in hopes of stirring conversation?

Jun 18, 2009 19:25:02 GMT -5 kes said:

Even more than the jealousy, this seems an issue:

Christian would never feel it is right to flirt to get a review.
Olli would.

Neither is right or wrong -- but I find this rift fascinating. I hope it gets explored. Jealousy is boring, but a difference in values? That is fascinating.

*cheers* Excellent! Yes, I agree.

Though, I do think that Christian pretty much doesn't really stomach Olli's flirting well at all, especially with other guys, and pretty much doesn't find it to be "harmless", at least not when it is his boyfriend doing it. The thing I keep seeing people who flirt themselves in ways that they find harmless saying is that Christian must be insecure, as though that is a failing of his, or he would understand that Olli is just flirty, and it's not a big deal.

I think the flip side of that is that Olli is just flirty, and it is no big deal to Olli, but it is a big deal to Christian. Not because he is insecure as an innate failing to his personality, but because he, himself, probably never flirts with any other guy (or girl), has no desire to, and doesn't see the appeal in it.

But beyond that, I think he believes, deep down, that flirtation is seeking out attention (or possibly something else) that should be satisfied "at home", and would be satisified "at home" if you are truly happy with your relationship.

Olli's "harmless flirting" probably rattles him, because though he can take at face value Olli's protests that it is meaningless and that it's just a bit of fun, or whatever, Christian doesn't really get that on a gut level. It's like someone saying that skydiving is loads of fun, when you really can't imagine how it possibly could be, and so you just have to take it at their word that it is fun, but you don't really understand it.

So, Christian doesn't get the idea of flirting being harmless on a deep gut level, and since he doesn't get it on a gut level, he can't really understand why on earth Olli would want to flirt with some stranger -- for a review or otherwise, though for a review would be even more distasteful to him, I'm sure.

So, Christian is left wondering if he's a fool. He begins to have doubts, perhaps he's getting boring for Olli since Olli needs this extra bit of fun and attention from outside of their relationship, perhaps Olli's values don't match his own in very important ways, and if that is the case...what does that mean? (Also, I liked the touch of Christian reading the magazine article saying, 'Is Infidelity Hardwired into Our Genes?')

I imagine that the idea that they might have value systems with regards to relationships, flirting, sex, etc, that don't entirely match up is something Christian hasn't even allowed himself to consider before, because it probably terrifies him quite a lot.

What happens when Christian gets terrified? Well, since he never freaks out (haha!), I guess we could describe it more like he hits below the belt, like with the suggestion that Olli would've slept with the guy for a good review. But I think his final sentence said it all, "Things like this make me want to throw up." Or whatever the exact quote was. He wants to puke over -- what? The idea of Olli flirting for a good review? Or the idea of Olli flirting at all? Or is it something bigger than that? Something that Olli's flirting is symptomatic of? Like, say, the difference in values between them.

[tihkon2]

rhiannonhero,

What a well thought out post! You bring up a lot of interesting questions about the differences in their mindsets etc...

I think all those things could be valid. But I also wonder if it's a simple matter of possesiveness on Christian's part?

The physicality of smarmy Lukas putting his paw on Olli , might have triggered the "Mine!" reflex. Then Olli tried to calm him down but he was seeing red so he lashed out left and right.

;D

[rhiannonhero]

Oh, tihkon, I definitely think Christian can go a little psychotic over men touching Olli. I mean, the whole thing with Rick-grabbing-Olli's-ass in the dance club before Olli and Christian even got together was pretty indicative of how possessive he can be at times.

Many people keep saying that if Olli had only pulled Christian aside and explained who Lukas was and what was going on, then the whole thing could've been averted, but I agree with that only up to the point when Lukas touched Olli, and Olli didn't immediately rebuff the touch. And even if Olli had immediately rebuffed the touch, I'm still not sure Christian wouldn't have gone a bit crazy cakes.

I know that some people around here don't like that behavior in him, and were hoping it had changed, but I think that a change in that behavior would simply be rather out of character, and I'd have a harder time accepting that, than I do accepting unflattering behavior being part of the character's make-up.

Anyway, yeah, I think that some guy touching Olli in a suggestive way is not ever going to make Christian shrug and say, "Oh, well." I think it's almost always going to result in Christian acting out.

[MtnDewCodeRedFreak]

But .... Monday the 22nd is gonna turn out good, according to the *cough* spoiler.

[tihkon2]

MtDewCodeRedFreak

We're not supposed to even hint about spoilers outside of the spoiler discussion thread. Some people reeeeeeeeaaaalllly don't want to know a thing about what's coming up and we try to repect that.

[brownsugar]

rhiannonhero...a wonderful and thoughful post.


Just watched the episode and found it to be very interesting and quite layered. It even had a different feel to it.

I went into this episode with the intentions of seeing Olli flirting up a storm with Lukas, but on the contrary, what I did see was an uncomfortable Olli sitting on that couch.

What I saw today wasn't a flirtatious Olli doing anything he could to get a good write up for his restaurant, but a man trying to run a succesful buisness.

Now Olli is a flirt, but he has his boundaries, and when those boundaries are crossed, as with with the slick as an oil spill Lukas putting his uninvited hands on Olli, then he becomes very uncomfortable, almost child like in his behavior, because he is no longer in control, and that makes him feel very uneasy.

I felt this sadness for Christian because he feels so insecure with the flirting. And you really feel for him because he doesn't understand why anyone would want to flirt with others when they love someone else. When Christian loves he loves deeply and unconditionally. He's not looking at anyone or has any time for all this flirting nonsense. He just loves Olli and wants only Olli.

I think Christian has always been bothered by Olli's flirtatious behavior in the past, but he always kept it deep. He didn't want his boyfriend to know how much it bothered him. But buried under that macho persona are feelings of insecurity and hurt. Now with Olli running the business at Nolimits Christian has a first hand view to all this. He sees the attraction many customers have toward his boyfriend and the flirts that go on between them. Olli naturally sees this as perfectly innocent. And I'll bet even over at Schneider's this behavior went Olli, but Christian wasn't privy to it, now he is. I'll also bet that many patrons flirt with Christian, least we forget he also is a very attractive young man, but the difference is Christian ignores it all. He has no interest but for Olli who to him is 'THE ONE'

I think the tipping point for Christian was at that auction, with the groupie type behavior from the woman who won a date with Olli. And today was the last straw...he just exploded after seeing yet again a come on from another patron.

I think whats sad is that lost in all of this is just how much Olli really loves Christian. He has no interest in anyone else as I saw from today's episode. Because if you lift that fog of flirtatious behavior from Olli, there really isn't anything there but a deep and unwavering love for his boyfriend. And no man or woman can take that away.

I tend to sympathize with Christian because I don't flirt, feel shy when others flirt at me and it also makes me feel uncomfortable. It's just not me and I don't expect that type of behavior from the one I love.

What I do hope is gained from this argument is...Olli understands the depth to which his flirting affects Christian and will change his behavior when he is with him. And that Christian can now take comfort in knowing Olli realizes how he feels and how truly the flirting hurts him. I also hope Christian will understand Olli meant nothing with these flirts and that their relationship is still secure and strong.

This was a fascinating episode. Very well written and with depth. I think this opens up the opportunity to see further into the wonderful Olli and Christian relationship. I look forward to it.

Thank you so much nanna, Ivan, Tihkon and dutchy for your commitments.

[lolaruns]

I do think that flirting does bother Christian in general but I also think that this kind of "flirting for gain/for a review" does add a level to him. Because to him even if the trusts Olli not to do anything/even if he accepts that once his neverfreaksout has calmed down the fact that this moves Olli into this unpleasant company WILL remain even after he has accepted that Olli wasn't doing anything in this particular case.

I still don't see why having rules on certain subjects, abiding by them yourself and being irritated when the other person doesn't has to naturally be a sign of rampant horrible insecurity.

Let's say Christian was a green nut who was obsessive about recycling and this fight had been about Olli AGAIN throwing the beer can in the paper basket wouldn't the basic conflict be pretty much the same even with out any underlying "this means you are cheating on me"? (of course having it be about jealousy is more sexy, but I could picture Christian in a heartbeat being the kind of guy who picks a fight over recycling or somebody voting for the wrong party if he had just chosen a different area as his very serious focus)

[MtnDewCodeRedFreak]

Jun 18, 2009 23:50:08 GMT -5 tihkon2 said:

MtDewCodeRedFreak

We're not supposed to even hint about spoilers outside of the spoiler discussion thread. Some people reeeeeeeeaaaalllly don't want to know a thing about what's coming up and we try to repect that.

Oops - my bad.

[softfurbear]

Jun 19, 2009 2:22:42 GMT -5 MtnDewCodeRedFreak said:

Oops - my bad.

MtDewCodeRedFreak , maybe if you would go back and remove your hint comment that would help ensure that people who don't want even a hint would be happy

Btw I see you are new to the boards, hello!
Hope you enjoy your time here ;D

[Rita]

I reserve a right to (somewhat) change my opinion every time . Maybe I should just wait patiently for the translation before saying anything because it looks like I come to different conclusions every time I watch the episodes with subs. Or you know, not say anything between 12 and 5 am.

While I like Olivia and her insidious ways, I didn’t really understand either WHY she decided to dole out her “advice” here. What has she been doing lately outside the scenes we’ve seen? I know I should know this because I was actually able to see a couple of episodes entirely last week but I am drawing a blank. Is there any reason there to make her act like this?

brownsugar, I really like what you said. I share a lot of Christian’s personality traits, too. I tend to agree more with Christian’s mindset the same way you do.

Though I didn’t like the fact that the episode started on a negative note, it’s clear from the beginning to the end that they need each other. Over and over again I am amazed by the strength and certainty of their commitment. It is such a rare thing to see in any television show.

One more thing:

This pic gets me every time

[lolaruns]

Well most recently Olivia was pissed because Stella sold for 10 times as much money as she (Olivia) did and she was disappointed that David ended up buying her instead of a guy she found desirable.

Personally, I think she has been cranky ever since she decided to give up on Sebastian. Because of this, she has nowhere to focus her bitchy energies (which were previously focused on scheming against Lydia and Sebastian). As a result she is rather aimless (as can be seen by her showing up at the flatshare to see if she can tag along with anybody).

[rhiannonhero]

Jun 19, 2009 5:36:53 GMT -5 lolaruns said:

Personally, I think she has been cranky ever since she decided to give up on Sebastian. Because of this, she has nowhere to focus her bitchy energies (which were previously focused on scheming against Lydia and Sebastian). As a result she is rather aimless (as can be seen by her showing up at the flatshare to see if she can tag along with anybody).

I was wondering about this. I think this is a pretty good explanation. I still remain a little surprised that her bitchy energy ended up focused on Christian when she's got to know that will end up hurting Olli the most. I know that Christian has slighted her several times lately, including bidding 50 cents for her at the auction as a clear put down, joining in on Judith's joke about Olivia getting felt up for money, and making other typically insulting comments to her, but I can't recall -- has Olli done anything of late to hurt Olivia's feelings (besides not inviting her on the picnic/BBQ-thingy)? Usually, she seems to let her affection for Olli prevent her from doing things that will outright hurt him. Of course there were the two incidences of blackmail over Christian being in the closet, but both of those times Olivia clearly stood something to gain if her machinations worked. Here there seems to be no clear reason for her to basically do something that is going to end up hurting Olli at least as much as it might end up hurting Christian.

Another question, I know that Olivia was trying to get Christian to doubt Olli, and combined with his already existing doubt, which she was privy to since she over heard him say how hard it was for him to not get jealous over the people flirting with Olli at the bar, but a lot of me wonders how much Olivia believed what she was saying. Not necessarily about the guy Olli was talking to that day, but about Olli being likely to stray in general. I suspect she doesn't think it is untrue.

Regarding Olli's flirtation with this guy: I understand brownsugar's comment that we didn't really see Olli flirting with this guy, but I think that he must have been somewhat flirtatious in his dealings with Lukas, even if we didn't see it, for a few reasons: 1) when Christian came over to hint about the time, he already seemed a lot more annoyed than someone might be if they had to wait longer than expected for their partner's business reason (though, that is quite annoying at times), 2) Lukas, when he made his move, seemed quite sure that he wasn't hitting on a straight guy.

A friend of mine pointed out that by introducing Christian as his employee instead of his boyfriend, Olli added a layer of deception to any flirtation going on with Lukas. This was something that was echoed from his flirtation with Mark, the night of the pre-box-match fight. He introduced Christian to mark as his roommate. Yes, that was probably because Christian was not publicly out yet, but they weren't fooling anyone, and the description of roommate seemed to piss Christian off that night. And, I know that people here disagree with me, but I still think there is something just this side of deceitful about someone in a committed relationship auctioning themselves off for a date (especially if the person buying them isn't completely aware in advance of the fact that the person they are buying is completely unavailable).

It was pointed out to me by my friend, and I agree with her that when Christian tells Olli that he has no problem with flirtations so long as it is just a flirt, his idea of that is more along the lines of what we saw Gregor doing when the guy hit on him while Gregor was married to Sarah, and Gregor flirted back, all along making it clear to the guy that he was married and expecting a baby and there was nothing at all possible between them. Olli doesn't seem to flirt like that, based on what we've seen. He seems to leave out the fact that he's not available. It can come across like he's trying to keep his options open, which has got to really get under Christian's skin.

I'm wondering, though, given how I see the Olli character, if the way he flirts isn't more about the thrill and less about the fun. Let me explain: I see Olli as the kind of guy who absolutely needs and craves excitement. In his prior storyline, he didn't want to marry Tom because he didn't love him the way he loves Christian because he didn't want to settle down yet. He's self described as spontaneous, and until he met Christian he seemed like someone who could just jet out of anyone's life if he got the sudden urge. (Or just jet into your life and decide to stay awhile, like when he chose, spontaneously, because of Charlie and Lars, to stay in Dusseldorf.) I think that after the beating, and specifically, after his return from having some excitement in Ibiza, Olli became more focused on his life as a whole, more focused on meeting some kind of idea for success. At the same time, his devotion to Christian runs very deep, and his desire for a happy home life with someone he loves beyond measure, definitely drives him to stay put. But I don't think that makes Olli's desire for thrills and adventure simply up and vanish. I think the passion and drive he throws into the No Limits is symptomatic of it, and I wonder/suspect that the flirtations are part of it, too.

Now, we we don't have to assume that Olli almost always flirts in the ways that we've seen him flirt, i.e. not revealing that he's involved, but I do make that assumption, because, in part, why else would those be the flirts we've been shown? That's a less "harmless" kind of flirt than what we saw Gregor engage in with the guy who hit on him.

So, why would Olli flirt that way, especially, if he really isn't planning to step out on Christian, and even if he isn't subconsciously keeping his options open? Because I don't actually think that he's doing that, but could imagine that it would feel that way to Christian.

Instead, I think that maybe it is the thrill-seeker in him. I'm reminded of him telling Christian in the gym that time, "In the meantime, a little secrecy can be a quite thrilling." And another time, when suggesting that Christian was chatting in a gay chat room, which, of course, Christian wasn't and never would do that, Olli said, "We all have our little secrets."

I imagine that for the Olli character it would provide a certain level of thrill for his unavailability to be unknown to whomever he's sharing a flirt with, if only to make it feel more "real", but also as a kind of game of chicken with himself, where the added risk completes the fun. After all, if the person he's flirting with doesn't realize upfront that Olli is unavailable, then it is solely up to Olli to put a stop to things at just flirtation -- which would also appeal to Olli's control freakness -- and that might feel just the right amount of risky to Olli. Especially if this game of mental chicken is a little secret of his, and there is some temptation there that he has to deal with...and I think that for someone like Olli, monogamy doesn't necessarily come easily, and so there is probably a bit of temptation with some of the flirtations.

About this particular flirtation, though -- everyone seems to agree that Olli looked uncomfortable, but I wasn't entirely sure. He did look uncomfortable to a degree, but he certainly didn't say the things that he absolutely should know how to say by now (especially if he was faithful in Ibiza) to get someone to back off. A simple, "I really appreciate the offer, but I'm involved," would've been the right to thing to say after the guy suggested they go to a club together. Not, "Normally, I'd love to but I can't." I mean, what does that even mean? That could mean, "I'd love to do that with you some other time, but today I can't." It doesn't mean, "Sorry, but I'm totally committed and involved, really, I appreciate the offer, but I'm going to have to decline." But, of course, Lukas understood anyway and suggested that Olli deceive Christian in order to be with him (which, btw, I don't think Christian actually over heard) and while I believe that Olli was trying to think of a diplomatic way to rebuff this advance, too, I still think that he probably did flirt with the guy and by not introducing Christian as his boyfriend straight away, and even possibly inviting Christian to sit down and join them, Olli missed the opportunity not to mislead the guy about what Olli might be willing to do for a good review.

Um, wow, I've really wandered all of the place with this comment. I have no idea if it even makes sense. Oh, and for what it is worth, the character of Olli reminds me of the song "Hyperballad" by Bjork, some of you may know it, maybe? I think he has to ignore or struggle against a lot of his adventurous nature to stay with happily with Christian. Not that Olli isn't happy with Christian, because I think he absolutely is...just that his very nature is more unsettled.

[lolaruns]

You might be interestes in watching a few clips of Tom and Olli, particularly this one where they go to see a gay boyband with Charlie and Tom is upset that Olli flirts with a waitress.

It seems to me that Christian and Tom didn't really have that much in common *except* an tendency towards jealousy and strictness (including the ability to throw fits when things don't go their way [though we saw more of that between Tom and Ulli than with Olli]; I actually think that Tom probably had even more tendency to want to push Olli into certain boxes whether it was wanting to get married or wanting Olli to finish his studies).

It's interesting that when it came to jealousy Tom was exactly the other way around. Christian apparently doesn't mind if Olli flirting with girls, but feels uneasy/more threatened when Olli flirts with guys (maybe an unease that there are still areas where a "gay from the start" might have advantages over him? that they share something with Olli that he doesn't have access to?). Meanwhile Tom *hated* it when Olli flirted with girls and obviously felt very uneasy about it.

I always thought that it bothered Tom so much more because it was an area he couldn't understand or control. He was exclusively gay and probably didn't understand what Olli might see in girls/feared that Olli might have a need that only a girl could fill so there would be nothing he could do if Olli ever ran off with a girl (he actually expressed sentiments along those lines when Olli first pursued him and Tom had major distrust issues about getting involved with somebody bisexual). Personally I don't think that it's a coincidence that Olli cheated on Tom with a woman and not with a guy because with the kind of relationship they had that would probably piss Tom off more.

I wouldn't rule out that despite all the freedom loving for longer relationships Olli tends to pick guys who reel him in rather than somebody who is just as fun loving than he is. And he picks stricter guys and then goes and tests those boundaries by poking them. At least with Tom I always thought that getting Tom to be jealous was actually the desired effect.

Of course a dynamic like that makes a lot less sense with Christian. Olli is older now and shouldn't be pulling stuff like that anymore. And Christian is a lot more easygoing and Tom so it's not like he needs to make Christian jealous in order to get Christian's attention.

Still, I wouldn't rule out that Olli tends to gravitate towards man who give him the anchoring and boundaries that he can't give himself. He might not overtly like the but maybe he might still feel a subconcious need for them/realize that they are necessary for something deeper and more real.