ari
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Post by ari on Jun 2, 2011 12:42:38 GMT -5
That's where writers lose touch with fans. I know that writers want to finish the story they're telling, but the story shouldn't be written for them, it should be written for viewers. Most viewers don't give a hoot about Fer being noble or the story being about Fer, because first of all, if Cabano and Ruth were still on the show, they would probably be shown more. Would they have killed off Ruth or Cabano? I don't think so.
The bottom line is that what the average viewer will see is a popular and beloved character is dead while many unpopular characters are alive and still going on with their stories that no one cared about in the first place.
The writers can romanticize all day long, but they messed up, and there's no real explanation for what they did. Period.
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bahnree
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Post by bahnree on Jun 2, 2011 12:45:35 GMT -5
That's where writers lose touch with fans. I know that writers want to finish the story they're telling, but the story shouldn't be written for them, it should be written for viewers. Most viewers don't give a hoot about Fer being noble or the story being about Fer, because first of all, if Cabano and Ruth were still on the show, they would probably be shown more. Would they have killed off Ruth or Cabano? I don't think so. The bottom line is that what the average viewer will see is a popular and beloved character is dead while many unpopular characters are alive and still going on with their stories that no one cared about in the first place. The writers can romanticize all day long, but they messed up, and there's no real explanation for what they did. Period. I agree with you 100%.
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Post by benben88 on Jun 2, 2011 12:45:43 GMT -5
" FoQ can be seen as the story of Fer, from the moment his big love died which set off his coming out of the closet, his journey learning to be himself, all the way to his own death, helping others. Noble Fer and noble Javi. Jaime Vaca." That is in fact a very questionable altruistic thinking that I - personally - decline. I can only fear what this kind of reasoning could set off in those real gay teens that might themselves be caught in similar tragic situation. I just can't stand death becoming a metaphor for self-sacrifice and unconditioned love, especially not among young people who still have all their lives ahead of them. Brrrrrr.
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 12:46:34 GMT -5
Does anyone know if this "Nunca te olvides de mi nombre." is some sort of a montage to Fer? I'm seeing quite a number of FoqFans on tumblr writing this. That was the Spanish title of 75, "Don't you ever forget my name", Toño says that, in reference to something at the beginning of the chapter, a lecture by Verónica, about great writers, authors of major works (most famously in Spain, Lazarillo de Tormes), whose names got lost. He says that's how the bullies made him feel, " Don Nadie", Mr. Nobody. Now, no one will ever forget his name. It's this syndrome en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herostratusof which Mark David Chapman is a famous modern example. But it also applies to Fer, obviously, speaking to David and the rest.
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 12:47:49 GMT -5
" FoQ can be seen as the story of Fer, from the moment his big love died which set off his coming out of the closet, his journey learning to be himself, all the way to his own death, helping others. Noble Fer and noble Javi. Jaime Vaca." That is in fact a very questionable altruistic thinking that I - personally - decline. I can only fear what this kind of reasoning could set off in those real gay teens that might themselves be caught in evenly tragic situation. I just can't stand death becoming a metaphor for self-sacrifice and unconditioned love, especially not among young people who still have all their lives ahead of them. Brrrrrr. I would wait until Monday night to decide on that.
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Post by ryan2624 on Jun 2, 2011 12:50:21 GMT -5
That's where writers lose touch with fans. I know that writers want to finish the story they're telling, but the story shouldn't be written for them, it should be written for viewers. Most viewers don't give a hoot about Fer being noble or the story being about Fer, because first of all, if Cabano and Ruth were still on the show, they would probably be shown more. Would they have killed off Ruth or Cabano? I don't think so. The bottom line is that what the average viewer will see is a popular and beloved character is dead while many unpopular characters are alive and still going on with their stories that no one cared about in the first place. The writers can romanticize all day long, but they messed up, and there's no real explanation for what they did. Period.
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bahnree
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Post by bahnree on Jun 2, 2011 12:52:55 GMT -5
When I say it is difficult, I mean it's tricky for Javier to come out like this against the writers, all the more so that he gave his agreement at first, same thing for Adrián. He also gave some insight on the thinking of Vaca & Ruano: Fer starts with a speech he gives when his first love Rubén kills himself, and he ends dying for the love of his life, and more importantly telling the love of his life he is the love of his life. Javier also quoted what Vaca tweeted him during the videochat that addresses what I was writing about earlier. Here it is: " FoQ can be seen as the story of Fer, from the moment his big love died which set off his coming out of the closet, his journey learning to be himself, all the way to his own death, helping others. Noble Fer and noble Javi. Jaime Vaca." I re-watched Fer's speech about Ruben, and I was struck by the line when Fer says he can't think of many things he wants to do before he dies. As the series goes on, this COMPLETELY changes. Fer gets a lot of goals, like being with David and going to school and getting into Communications and making a career. That makes his death even more sad, because he had all these dreams and plans after going through losing Ruben.
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Post by benben88 on Jun 2, 2011 12:54:04 GMT -5
That is in fact a very questionable altruistic thinking that I - personally - decline. I can only fear what this kind of reasoning could set off in those real gay teens that might themselves be caught in evenly tragic situation. I just can't stand death becoming a metaphor for self-sacrifice and unconditioned love, especially not among young people who still have all their lives ahead of them. Brrrrrr. I would wait until Monday night to decide on that. I was mostly referring to the quote ... but out of interest, what's next Monday going to change?
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Post by ryan2624 on Jun 2, 2011 12:57:47 GMT -5
That's it..period! No reason to justify this and yes, they wouldn't have done on Ruth and Cabano, Gorka & Paula, nor did they with Julio and Cova. This is not even romantic, it's betrayed to Fervid fans period!
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Shiny
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Post by Shiny on Jun 2, 2011 12:57:54 GMT -5
No, no, he is in 77 too, the final sequence essentially, I guess. But the big FerVid chapter is this coming Monday, June 6, chapter 76. I'm not sure if he's in 77. It was directed by Quintas and Javi said that 74 was his last episode together with Quintas.
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 13:21:31 GMT -5
That's where writers lose touch with fans. I know that writers want to finish the story they're telling, but the story shouldn't be written for them, it should be written for viewers. Most viewers don't give a hoot about Fer being noble or the story being about Fer, because first of all, if Cabano and Ruth were still on the show, they would probably be shown more. Would they have killed off Ruth or Cabano? I don't think so. The bottom line is that what the average viewer will see is a popular and beloved character is dead while many unpopular characters are alive and still going on with their stories that no one cared about in the first place. The writers can romanticize all day long, but they messed up, and there's no real explanation for what they did. Period. Well, the fans of Ruth and Cabano, of which the name is legion, were and stiil are very unhappy that they were written off and separately. Because, to anyone who looks at things objectively, it means they never meant that much on the show. The other thing is, judging from Twitter and FB, I wouldn't be so sure that "most Spanish viewers don't give a hoot about Fer being noble or the story being about Fer". I mean there is a lot of anger and frustration but there is also a hell of lot of acceptance that goes along the lines Vaca indicated. I am not saying however that this is "a Spanish thing", because frankly that would be offensive, and Javier Calvo's at best very mixed attitude clearly indicates there is a problem there for Spanish viewers too. As I already said, what is for me the biggest problem is that for too long the show (the writers) have been chicken about how gay this really was. And I am not talking about the Fer and Yoli episode in Season 5 (Javier Calvo said very strongly in the chat, that, of course, Fer had never been in love with Yoli, not for one second). I am referring to the fact that basically Sergio Mur was the first, back in November to state the obvious, that this was/is a (teen) "show in which the main love story is a love story between two boys". Ruano in that interview from May 2010 that I translated, said very clearly, discussing FoQ, the Spanish TV market being what it is, it is impossible to do Queer as Folk or The L Word in Spain. So FoQ was mainstream, not niche. But with a central gay story and two incredibly charismatic gay characters, because that is obviously the story that the creator and headwriters wanted to tell. And obviously but never explicitly since it couldn't be said to be the target audience, they were also writing for gay viewers (and not just in Spain). Now, I do believe gay writers are perfectly entitled to have a darker, more pessimistic and/or depressive vision than would fit with a, say, progressive, gay agenda. Writers are artists and creators, and their life experiences are (part of) what they work from, and how could it be just all smiley faces and rainbow flags? This is also inscribed, I think, in a tradition of High Romanticism that I completely accept. So I am satisfied with waiting for Monday's episode to see where this is going to end. But I do feel the need remains for writers here to specifically talk to gay viewers and address what it is they are doing, and what it means. The whole strategy from the beginning implied that gay viewers would be watching a different show than the rest of the audience and that, so to speak, they'd be right, their reading of the show was the correct one. I think this is still the case, but clearly some explaining has to be done.
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 13:22:57 GMT -5
No, no, he is in 77 too, the final sequence essentially, I guess. But the big FerVid chapter is this coming Monday, June 6, chapter 76. I'm not sure if he's in 77. It was directed by Quintas and Javi said that 74 was his last episode together with Quintas. It was meant to be, since Fer's last show was supposed to be 76. But with the rewriting and the shortened season, the finale, which is also the show's finale, became 77 which was always going to be Quintas' episode. And Fer appears in the finale.
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Post by ashesborn on Jun 2, 2011 13:25:28 GMT -5
Yes. I agree - they didn't have to kill Fer just so they could push all that "he'll stay forever in David's heart" crap on us. Yes, it's romantic, but it's also extremely dumb and short-sighted at it's best. We pretty much got a confirmation from Javi that Fer's dead for good, didn't we? Now I see only two possible outcomes:
- David stays alone, bearing that love for Fer inside of him for the rest of his life. While some may call it touching and romantic, I can only describe it as "torturing". No matter how much he loves Fer, or how many times he thinks of him - he's still dead, and nothing's gonna change that. David's never gonna be happy.
......or - David moves on, finds another guy, and we get a "I'll always remember him, he was my first true love, he taught me to be brave, blah blah blah" speech. This one's gonna be rushed and highly unbelievable, and also make all the stuff they've been through together seem pointless.
Both outcomes are very unsatisfying. Well... for me, at least.
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 13:28:00 GMT -5
Yes. I agree - they didn't have to kill Fer just so they could push all that "he'll stay forever in David's heart" crap on us. Yes, it's romantic, but it's also extremely dumb and short-sighted at it's best. We pretty much got a confirmation from Javi that Fer's dead for good, didn't we? Now I see only two possible outcomes: - David stays alone, bearing that love for Fer inside of him for the rest of his life. While some may call it touching and romantic, I can only describe it as "torturing". No matter how much he loves Fer, or how many times he thinks of him - he's still dead, and nothing's gonna change that. David's never gonna be happy. ......or - David moves on, finds another guy, and we get a "I'll always remember him, he was my first true love, he taught me to be brave, blah blah blah" speech. This one's gonna be rushed and highly unbelievable, and also make all the stuff they've been through together seem pointless. Both outcomes are very unsatisfying. Well... for me, at least. I think you should give the two actors, and the show, the chance to impress you. The proof of the pudding is in eating it. I'd wait until Monday night to decide you won't like that episode.
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 13:30:09 GMT -5
I would wait until Monday night to decide on that. I was mostly referring to the quote ... but out of interest, what's next Monday going to change? Contrary to what it seems, the story of Fer and David as the writers have decided to tell it is not over yet. The true ending comes next Monday and it is apparently going to be spectacular. That's why I am advising to wait until then to pass final judgment.
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Post by ashesborn on Jun 2, 2011 13:31:34 GMT -5
I'm just speculating. Yes, we'll have to wait and see, but right now I can't think of any possible ending that would make me say "Wow! I was wrong, it's amazing!". I DO hope the show proves me wrong... I doubt it will though.
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Jun 2, 2011 13:34:15 GMT -5
I hate how shows do this to their gay characters. They never really end up happy do they? Luke and Noah for example, first they break them up, then have Luke fall for Reid then kill Reid and have both Luke and Noah alone and unhappy at the end. While every other character got their happy ending. It is utter BS how writers think that all gay characters have to be long suffering and tragic, either they end up alone or they end up dead. The message they send is not only a sad but dangerous one. You can't be out and proud without it coming back to bite you on the ass. You either end up alone and pathetic or you die this idealized romantic death for love or some variation of the theme. They save everyone but themselves. Not a good message to send out there to gay youth.
As much as I loved Brokeback Mountain, that's the one thing I really didn't like about it. Jack, the one who was the most comfortable with his sexuality had to be the one to die this horrible tragic death so that En is could realize what he had and lost. All the time he'd wasted all the life he lost with someone he could have and should have built a life with if not for his own fears.
The way this show could have and should have mythologized Fervid, was to have them healthy, happy and together at the end. Showing people and gay youth in particular that is is possible to have it all. The education, career, and love. That not every relationship is destined to end in blood and tears.
The creators, writers and directors can spin this any way they want to, but it all spins out to a vast heaping load of smelly shit. There was no reason to kill Fer, other than their ego in saying that they could. They spit on all the fans of the couple basically saying they didn't care what the fans wanted.
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Post by benben88 on Jun 2, 2011 13:40:38 GMT -5
I hate how shows do this to their gay characters. They never really end up happy do they? Luke and Noah for example, first they break them up, then have Luke fall for Reid then kill Reid and have both Luke and Noah alone and unhappy at the end. While every other character got their happy ending. It is utter BS how writers think that all gay characters have to be long suffering and tragic, either they end up alone or they end up dead. The message they send is not only a sad but dangerous one. You can't be out and proud without it coming back to bite you on the ass. You either end up alone and pathetic or you die this idealized romantic death for love or some variation of the theme. They save everyone but themselves. Not a good message to send out there to gay youth. As much as I loved Brokeback Mountain, that's the one thing I really didn't like about it. Jack, the one who was the most comfortable with his sexuality had to be the one to die this horrible tragic death so that En is could realize what he had and lost. All the time he'd wasted all the life he lost with someone he could have and should have built a life with if not for his own fears. The way this show could have and should have mythologized Fervid, was to have them healthy, happy and together at the end. Showing people and gay youth in particular that is is possible to have it all. The education, career, and love. That not every relationship is destined to end in blood and tears. The creators, writers and directors can spin this any way they want to, but it all spins out to a vast heaping load of smelly shit. There was no reason to kill Fer, other than their ego in saying that they could. They spit on all the fans of the couple basically saying they didn't care what the fans wanted. I'm 100% with you! Thank you for your words!
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Jun 2, 2011 13:48:03 GMT -5
I was mostly referring to the quote ... but out of interest, what's next Monday going to change? Contrary to what it seems, the story of Fer and David as the writers have decided to tell it is not over yet. The true ending comes next Monday and it is apparently going to be spectacular. That's why I am advising to wait until then to pass final judgment. While I understand what you're saying and honestly hope you are right about this. I've been watching soaps too long to put much faith in writers when they mess up this badly. Unless this is some sort of Dallas thing where David wakes the hell up and this was all a dream. I'm not going to be happy and I don't think many others will be either. I think the whole martyrdom of gay characters is beyond insulting not only to the gay community but to everyone watching. It's condescending, not to mention weak and lazy writing. It also speaks to not understanding or appreciating your audience who have grown love these characters. So what Fer is a ghost/spirit who will be watching over David now and forever. Big deal. That's not romantic, it's not touching, nor is it spectacular. It's lazy "my heart will go on" type of writing. I didn't like it in the movie Titanic (which watching that crap was one time too many), and I don't like it here.
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Post by jjose712 on Jun 2, 2011 14:14:16 GMT -5
I have to be honest, i didn't like that they killed Fer, but if they decided to kill someone, there's only four options (and that being generous and including Alma). When you kill a character, you do it to cause an impact, and only Fer, Yoli and David could cause that impact.
I always criticise that the writers of this show have a tendency to kill characters, and they are teens, mortality rates in teens are not that high. I'm not so sure that they wouldn't kill Cabano or Ruth if they were in the show. I know people are angry and the death of the gay character is becoming a tired cliche, but if they wanted and impact before they go, they did it for sure.
By the way, i'm not so sure that this will be the end of the show, maybe a reformed FoQ will land in Neox. They do incredibly well in the teen viewers, and antena3 wants to keep it because sponsors. In my opinion the channel make a mistake on the schedule, but it's too late to change that
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bsgnut
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Post by bsgnut on Jun 2, 2011 14:26:35 GMT -5
I am shocked and disgusted by this turn of events. Lady Armand, I am SO with you about the killing of gay characters-- I'm really sick of it. Gays as tragic figures has been done to death-- don't we deserve a little happiness sometime? Geez. And what's worse, just when Fer and David finally move in together and are ready to make their way as a couple, one of them gets killed! What a cop out. Sadly, this tragic theme has become the norm in gay films as well. I don't know how many I've seen lately where the main character gets shot or stabbed right at the end of the movie, just when he's finally found the love of his life. I mean, wtf? Where is this coming from?
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 14:29:13 GMT -5
In my opinion the channel make a mistake on the schedule, but it's too late to change that To be clear, Antena 3 decided, very late in the day, to run the first episode on the worst day of the week, and as soon as the predictably bad results of the first episode were in, they pulled the plug (May 9, but it was made public weeks later). So it is not a mistake, sabotage is more like it. Independently of what happened to Fer, Javier couldn't hide tonight that he was angry that the show had been treated like this and was not at all given a chance to prove it was still very popular. It's clear that if 75 had been put on prime time, it would have equalled the best results the show'd ever made. Instead of which TPIC decided to leave it in night time.
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Post by firecrawler09 on Jun 2, 2011 14:33:09 GMT -5
It's been one day and it has finally sunk in.
I'm crying my eyes out. This is absolute horseshit.
I used to plug the hell out of this show and pairing to anyone who would listen, sending them links of YouTube videos that show exactly why this pairing has been fantastic and inspirational to many, but now I hesitate on doing that. I don't want anyone to get emotionally invested to this couple and then find out that one of them dies.
Or at least, if I do it in the future, I'll always have to give a notice: "Oh haiz, this is an absolutely cute, magnificent gay teenage couple. But don't get too attached because one of them dies. Thnx."
Unfuckinbelievable.
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firens
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Post by firens on Jun 2, 2011 14:41:33 GMT -5
Contrary to what it seems, the story of Fer and David as the writers have decided to tell it is not over yet. The true ending comes next Monday and it is apparently going to be spectacular. That's why I am advising to wait until then to pass final judgment. While I understand what you're saying and honestly hope you are right about this. I've been watching soaps too long to put much faith in writers when they mess up this badly. Unless this is some sort of Dallas thing where David wakes the hell up and this was all a dream. I'm not going to be happy and I don't think many others will be either. I think the whole martyrdom of gay characters is beyond insulting not only to the gay community but to everyone watching. It's condescending, not to mention weak and lazy writing. It also speaks to not understanding or appreciating your audience who have grown love these characters. So what Fer is a ghost/spirit who will be watching over David now and forever. Big deal. That's not romantic, it's not touching, nor is it spectacular. It's lazy "my heart will go on" type of writing. I didn't like it in the movie Titanic (which watching that crap was one time too many), and I don't like it here. Well, very respectfully, as you know that's how I feel, but this is absolutely not a soap, contrary to what they keep writing at AE . It never was a soap, by any stretch of the format's definition. It's true that earlier Spanish shows about teenagers in a school used the soap format. It's true also that as this was such a huge hit, it was extended beyond its original shelf life, with "old" characters leaving, "new" ones taking over, etc..., so at some point it looked like it could be open-ended, like a soap. Maybe they actually thought it could work like that. But, and the decrease in ratings was, in part, due to the fact that the audience never took it for anything else, this was from the start and has remained til the end, a dramedy about a specific group of students and teachers in a school, with very determined traits and a number of stories linked to their initial definitions. That being said, I'd again emphasize the right of writers, who are very probably gay writers, to write tragic stories without being called homophobic. Obviously, the comparison with Brokeback Mountain is problematic, since the time and place in which that film is set makes the tragedies (Ennis' refusal to come out and be happy and Jack's death) not just plausible, but sort of inevitable, and that's certainly not the case in 2011 Spain. But, it is nevertheless true that Fer was a tragic unhappy character from the start, so there is a consistency, even if it could have turned out differently. And I also want to say that I couldn't disagree more with the notion of "lazy writing" being applied here. If Fer and David had become mythical way before last night, it is precisely to the amazing quality of the writing for their scenes (that never flagged, even when there were weaknesses in the rest of the show), as much as to the amazing talent of both performers, that we owe what FerVid has become the world over. So Javier tonight said he wouldn't describe his character in 76 as a ghost. I am not sure what that means, and what else it could be. But like Shiny, after that videochat, I am more than ever determined to watch Monday's show to find out and see how the couple ends.
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bahnree
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Post by bahnree on Jun 2, 2011 14:46:59 GMT -5
So Javier tonight said he wouldn't describe his character in 76 as a ghost. I am not sure what that means, and what else it could be. But like Shiny, after that videochat, I am more than ever determined to watch Monday's show to find out and see how the couple ends. I think Fer in 7x06 is David's hallucination and the episode is about David coming to terms with Fer's death. This does not make me happy or satisfied in any way.
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