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Post by sonia38 on May 1, 2011 22:38:03 GMT -5
When did Olli pressure Christian into being with him?
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on May 1, 2011 22:44:10 GMT -5
When did Olli pressure Christian into being with him? Im not saying it was a concious pressure...just like Fervid But having the person that you think that you like, that confuses you there all the time, it can be a bit of pressure. Everytime Christian turned Olli was there. Im not saying is a bad thing, I dont think the romance would have happened without this, and bc Olli loves Christian wants to be there for him. But like I said, could be a no-aware act of pressure.
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Post by dalphine on May 1, 2011 22:59:54 GMT -5
Olli did not pressure Christian at all. He back off Christian after he ran and won the race to get into college to be a coach. Olli attended and really helped Christian win. Olli told Olivia that he would wait till Christian realize his feelings for him. Olli was at the night club dancing and having a good time and Christian the one who got jealous and want to beat up Olli date.
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on May 1, 2011 23:06:18 GMT -5
Olli did not pressure Christian at all. He back off Christian after he ran and won the race to get into college to be a coach. Olli attended and really helped Christian win. Olli told Olivia that he would wait till Christian realize his feelings for him. Olli was at the night club dancing and having a good time and Christian the one who got jealous and want to beat up Olli date. Im saying in a non-concious way...anyway, it was just a thought, that I am thinking about. But my main point is that I want for Christian to really discover himself and accept himself. Bc for what we have seen, it seems is being implied that Chrisitan is saying "Im straight but Im in love with Olli" I would like for him to really define himself. Bc right now, it seems we are going in circles with the topic of his sexuality. and like I said I dont believe in pansexuality....the human being is a sexual being first. Btw Im not trying to offend anybody, Im just posting my personal views. Maybe they suck but they are my personal views ;D
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Post by dalphine on May 2, 2011 2:25:35 GMT -5
gabyta07...I'm sorry if my post seem I was being angry, I'm not I guess you can say I'm very defenses of my guys. I meant to write that in my post that I hope no one took me as being angry, but something came up and I didn't get back to it. I know everyone has there opinion and my is I just didn't think Olli pressure Christian into anything.
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mitsaso
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Post by mitsaso on May 2, 2011 7:48:23 GMT -5
I ate some bitter chocolate today, and it was D-licious!!! And THAT'S my contribution to the "bitterness" thread.
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jos87
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Post by jos87 on May 2, 2011 8:49:14 GMT -5
Olli did not pressure Christian at all. He back off Christian after he ran and won the race to get into college to be a coach. Olli attended and really helped Christian win. Olli told Olivia that he would wait till Christian realize his feelings for him. Olli was at the night club dancing and having a good time and Christian the one who got jealous and want to beat up Olli date. Im saying in a non-concious way...anyway, it was just a thought, that I am thinking about. But my main point is that I want for Christian to really discover himself and accept himself. Bc for what we have seen, it seems is being implied that Chrisitan is saying " Im straight but Im in love with Olli" in VL Christian always describes himself as gay. For example when Andi returned in Dussendorf and discovered that Christian and Oliver were a couple. But it's true that he never show interest in other men,but it's true that i have never seen Christian showing a real interest for women too;ok he kisses Rebecca (i don't consider Miriam/Christian's kiss;for me that kiss was nothing) but we know why he did (the first kiss was after he discovered the Rob/Olli little kiss [for me he would have kissed the first people,man or female,that was ready to confort him a Rebecca was there ready for this ] and the second one was ,for me,only to make suffer Olli during the Rob storyline).I'm not justifying Christian because he did mistakes with these kisses but for me he really showed real interest for other men and women. This is my opinion
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Trish
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Post by Trish on May 2, 2011 10:04:45 GMT -5
I do agree that in that last Rebecca kiss, he turned and kissed whomever was standing there. It just happened to be Rebecca. If it was a guy, he would have kissed him.
However, it should be pointed out that he was flirting with a women all evening.
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jos87
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Post by jos87 on May 2, 2011 10:17:17 GMT -5
However, it should be pointed out that he was flirting with a women all evening. yes this is true.He flirted with her enjoying,for example, Jessica taking away the belt from his pants.And i don't justify him. Even tough for me in that case is all fault of the authors and the directors;they have created something nasty to see. A character that was not Christian, scenes bad acted and not very credible,where the actors (especially Thore) also seemed embarrassed.A terrible result punished by the viewers with bad rating. Anyway i believes that Christian likes women. Is normal so. He was only with women in the past and i'm sure that he was with woman not to repress his real sexuality.But,at the same time,i'm sure that he loves Olli and is attracted from Olli.This is sure
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Trish
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Post by Trish on May 2, 2011 10:20:51 GMT -5
I was talking about the night he kissed Rebecca. He had been dancing with a women that evening and that is why Olli got so upset, then he turned around and kissed Rebecca to make Olli even more mad.
Jessica was just stupid. The prior time was totally calculated on Christian's part and meant to hurt Olli.
Actually it makes Christian look all the worse, because he's not only doing these things to hurt Olli, but he doesn't care about the person that he's using in order to get his revenge.
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jos87
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Post by jos87 on May 2, 2011 10:23:32 GMT -5
I was talking about the night he kissed Rebecca. He had been dancing with a women that evening and that is why Olli got so upset, then he turned around and kissed Rebecca to make Olli even more mad. Jessica was just stupid. The prior time was totally calculated on Christian's part and meant to hurt Olli. with Jessica too he flirts. But i continue to say that he never showed a real interest neither for other women nor for other man. I talk about real interest (not flirting). Actually it makes Christian look all the worse, because he's not only doing these things to hurt Olli, but he doesn't care about the person that he's using in order to get his revenge. this is also true.But for me this part was poorly written and directed.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 2, 2011 17:47:44 GMT -5
if i were to go by the kinsey scale (itself not very forgiving in terms of shades of grey), i would put christian a little left of bisexual (or 'equal parts of both') meaning i find him 'predominantly heterosexual but more than incidentally homosexual'. although considering his relationship history it is tempting to classify (god, how i hate that word) him even further toward exclusively heterosexual as; 'predominantly heterosexual only incidentally homosexual'. because had the 'incident' of olli waltzing into his life NOT occurred, i find it quite believable that christian would have gone on to conduct his romantic relationships exclusively with women. that is not to say, olli is the ONLY man christian could ever be sexually attracted to ever. more that something about olli inspired christian to take a leap of faith, as far as his sexuality was concerned, and discover for himself that the boundaries on what he finds sexually pleasurable, exciting and attractive are not quite where he thought they would be. i think the way he is written is as a very confused young man. still. i don't think christian truly understands that it's possible to not be straight, whilst not being 'gay' either. he is desperately trying to create an identity for himself where he can act out a little normalcy - because christian has always been about things being settled and normal and easy. and it's easier to call himself 'gay' and try and box up all his previous heterosexual feelings and shove them to one side, than deal with the possibility he is drifting somewhere between the two. but i think for olli's piece of mind, and ultimately for christian's happiness and security within himself - this issue has to be dealt with. i won't be back loving chrolli anytime soon - but a part of my inner chrolli fan will have a little closure if after his interaction with theresa, christian mann can walk away - with his head held high - and say; okay, so i'm NOT gay - but it doesn't mean i can't LOVE olli - and want to be with him sexually. i think the dust will only settle after he's done that. and maybe he will find some inner peace as well.
and before i get told off, i don't think labels are important - and i don't think they have that much currency (past, present and future) - you become what you label yourself and what others label you. in my theory it's not so much the terms 'straight' or 'gay' or 'bisexual', more the feelings involved. christian quite clearly has the ability to be sexually attracted to women. but he refuses to acknowledge or deal with this possibility - whilst never denying it either. something has to give.
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Post by lolaruns on May 2, 2011 23:58:46 GMT -5
That's pretty much exactly how I have always perceived Christian and sexuality as well. I just wish VL would get over their "acting like bisexual is a taboo word" thing.
I'm also bitter that all those "fun" jokes about Andi and men just cloud the issue that it will never get dealt with sensibly. And I'm still better that Helandi get the couple therapy storyline when actually Christian and Olli would be a lot more interesting to explore in a setting like this/forced to actually talk about themselves, their pasts, etc.
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pru
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Post by pru on May 3, 2011 0:51:19 GMT -5
I agree lola and SF. And what was suppose to be accomplished imo by having Andi cheat on Helena if she was just going to forgive his unworthy ass weeks later. And don't even get me started on how he blatantly LIED to the therapist about him and Helena not having ANY problems. It boogles my mind what she sees in him to begin with. He is such a tool.
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Post by lolaruns on May 3, 2011 1:04:33 GMT -5
It's not like Helena is perfect in her relationship with Andi. But unlike him she never goes far without realizing it, questioning herself, beating herself up for it and trying to change herself (usually due to various permutations of "Am I too stuck up?").
While with Andi it tends to come across as "Awwww, shucks, I messed up again, look at how awesomely not perfect I am".
Maybe Andi would be less annoying if we didn't have the contrast of how seriously Helena takes any slight she might have done against Andi, while he just shrugs any of his of as part of relationships. And it just comes of as really mismatched and unequal rather than "complimentary opposites".
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on May 3, 2011 1:53:31 GMT -5
So everyone is going to hate me, after i finish saying this....but I think Christian has a pattern, when thing get though he goes running to the arms of another person. is like when he was in a relationship with Coco...things were getting difficult btw her and him...and the Ollie comes and says I love you. Im not saying he didnt fell in love with Olli or anything like that. Im just saying he goes running to the arms of the ppl that pay attention to him when things get difficult. Just like in the case with rebecca, she was paying attention to him and wam....they kiss. the miriam thing was also similar, he got drunk bc he was angry with Olli, and the he kisses a woman. And again he got drunk bc he was upset with Olli and the Jessica things happens. So not only has to deal with his sexuality issues but also he has to mature and stop having this pattern. And about labels, I have my own opinion abt that....its outside the Chrolli.....I do believe in labels, labels make our life easier....I mean when I say table you know Im talking about a thing that is made of wood, plastic or glass, that mostly has 4 legs and where you can put things on top....Imagine that everytime I talk about it i have to give this little definition....so we put a name to it. I know humans are more complicated than that, and that is more humaine not to give labels. But I do think we need them, humans need language, and language has the need of labeling. For example, I work with children with autism, and is important that I know the name of the child's problem so I know how to treat it. In the case of hetero, gay, bisexual....or whatever it gives us a sense of belonging....is just the same when I say Im mexican. And not only that, it gives us a sense of identity. it doesnt matter who you like or not, but is good for the soul to give it name. Those are my thoughts....I know many wont agree with me, but that is the reason why colors exist Back to Chrolli, I wouldnt like for Christian to be pansexual..."Oh Im hetero but I fell in love with Oliver, bc you fall in love with the person", dont agree with this statement, as I explained already I think it denies human sexuality. If they say Christian is bisexual, I want him to feel attracted to both sexes...I mean no matter how much we love a person, we are always going to look the other way...just human nature. And well I dont like when they idealized characters, bc then I feel Im watching something from disney. I want them to be human, and have failures like any human. ok, you can hate me now.....please, throw small rocks...or is you want, tomatoes would be good too.
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pru
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Post by pru on May 3, 2011 2:03:37 GMT -5
It's not like Helena is perfect in her relationship with Andi. But unlike him she never goes far without realizing it, questioning herself, beating herself up for it and trying to change herself (usually due to various permutations of "Am I too stuck up?"). While with Andi it tends to come across as "Awwww, shucks, I messed up again, look at how awesomely not perfect I am". Maybe Andi would be less annoying if we didn't have the contrast of how seriously Helena takes any slight she might have done against Andi, while he just shrugs any of his of as part of relationships. And it just comes of as really mismatched and unequal rather than "complimentary opposites". Oh don't get me wrong, Helena has had many annoying moments as well. But I'm with you, usually when opposites are suppose to attract you can see why the couple is so perfect for each other and how they make the other one better, but this is not the case with Andi and Helena. They need to be imo, broken up permanently. And it really is too bad that the one guy she has smoking chemistry with plays her twin brother.
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bel7003
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Post by bel7003 on May 3, 2011 3:08:41 GMT -5
So everyone is going to hate me, after i finish saying this....but I think Christian has a pattern, when thing get though he goes running to the arms of another person. is like when he was in a relationship with Coco...things were getting difficult btw her and him...and the Ollie comes and says I love you. Im not saying he didnt fell in love with Olli or anything like that. Im just saying he goes running to the arms of the ppl that pay attention to him when things get difficult. Just like in the case with rebecca, she was paying attention to him and wam....they kiss. the miriam thing was also similar, he got drunk bc he was angry with Olli, and the he kisses a woman. And again he got drunk bc he was upset with Olli and the Jessica things happens. So not only has to deal with his sexuality issues but also he has to mature and stop having this pattern. And about labels, I have my own opinion abt that....its outside the Chrolli.....I do believe in labels, labels make our life easier....I mean when I say table you know Im talking about a thing that is made of wood, plastic or glass, that mostly has 4 legs and where you can put things on top....Imagine that everytime I talk about it i have to give this little definition....so we put a name to it. I know humans are more complicated than that, and that is more humaine not to give labels. But I do think we need them, humans need language, and language has the need of labeling. For example, I work with children with autism, and is important that I know the name of the child's problem so I know how to treat it. In the case of hetero, gay, bisexual....or whatever it gives us a sense of belonging....is just the same when I say Im mexican. And not only that, it gives us a sense of identity. it doesnt matter who you like or not, but is good for the soul to give it name. Those are my thoughts....I know many wont agree with me, but that is the reason why colors exist Back to Chrolli, I wouldnt like for Christian to be pansexual..."Oh Im hetero but I fell in love with Oliver, bc you fall in love with the person", dont agree with this statement, as I explained already I think it denies human sexuality. If they say Christian is bisexual, I want him to feel attracted to both sexes...I mean no matter how much we love a person, we are always going to look the other way...just human nature. And well I dont like when they idealized characters, bc then I feel Im watching something from disney. I want them to be human, and have failures like any human. ok, you can hate me now.....please, throw small rocks...or is you want, tomatoes would be good too. No one will throw anything at you for expressing your opinion. That's what we're here for. If everybody thought the same, this would be dead boring. I understand what you say. Labels are useful to help us define ourselves and clear our ideas. However, when it comes to human nature, labels are not enough. Because sometimes people tend to think they have to do, feel, think, act a certain way and, then, when faced with certain situations, they act the opposite. I'm not sure if i'm making myself very clear about this. It's a feeling I've had for a long time. You can never know what people will do, feel..., because humans have this tendency for escaping the labels. And that's what I think is so interesting about humans. As for Christian, I've never felt that woman/man issue was a problem for him. Of course it was in the beginning. He was younger and he had always thought of himself as straight. When he fell in love with Olli, his world was turned upside down and he had problems accepting it, But when he did, I don't think he ever questioned himself about his sexuality. I think now he will, because of Olli's doubts. And it's OK to go there, as long as the writing is good. Because this isn't a subject to be dealt with lightly. If Christian comes out of this S/L as realizing he still feels attracted to women , I don't have a problem with that, as long as he knows for sure he loves Olli, feels attracted to him and wants to build his life with him. That's what happens with everybody who's commited to a monogamous relationship. Just because we're with someone, it doesn't mean we can't find other people attractive (men and/or women). We just have to know who/what we want and live accordingly. I sincerely hope both Christian and Olli discover that who/what they really want is esch other. Otherwisw I'll be very frustrated. (Sorry for the long post! )
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jos87
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Post by jos87 on May 3, 2011 3:19:43 GMT -5
No one will throw anything at you for expressing your opinion. That's what we're here for. If everybody thought the same, this would be dead boring. I understand what you say. Labels are useful to help us define ourselves and clear our ideas. However, when it comes to human nature, labels are not enough. Because sometimes people tend to think they have to do, feel, think, act a certain way and, then, when faced with certain situations, they act the opposite. I'm not sure if i'm making myself very clear about this. It's a feeling I've had for a long time. You can never know what people will do, feel..., because humans have this tendency for escaping the labels. And that's what I think is so interesting about humans. As for Christian, I've never felt that woman/man issue was a problem for him. Of course it was in the beginning. He was younger and he had always thought of himself as straight. When he fell in love with Olli, his world was turned upside down and he had problems accepting it, But when he did, I don't think he ever questioned himself about his sexuality. I think now he will, because of Olli's doubts. And it's OK to go there, as long as the writing is good. Because this isn't a subject to be dealt with lightly. If Christian comes out of this S/L as realizing he still feels attracted to women , I don't have a problem with that, as long as he knows for sure he loves Olli, feels attracted to him and wants to build his life with him. That's what happens with everybody who's commited to a monogamous relationship. Just because we're with someone, it doesn't mean we can't find other people attractive (men and/or women). We just have to know who/what we want and live accordingly. I sincerely hope both Christian and Olli discover that who/what they really want is esch other. Otherwisw I'll be very frustrated. (Sorry for the long post! ) i think this too. And i'm sure that this will happen.Like SF said Christian (and Olli too) can't negate his past.He was with women because he likes women.And this is not a problem;now he loves Olli and i'm 100% sure of this.And what will happen for me will be this (it's the most logical thing,even to close Christian/women topic):Christian and Olli will understand that Christian likes women too but this doesn't mean that he is ready go to to bed with every woman that will be around him because he isn't interesting in other women or in other men for the simple reason he loves Olli and want get old with him. And (to lighten the conversation that i like)i hope that if Christian will look the back (who don't look other people?;when someone is beautiful why don't watch and admire in silence?) of the other people do it with men and with women.
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Post by fillelina on May 3, 2011 3:59:20 GMT -5
What frustrates me is that I think I've always assumed that it's obvious Christian can be attracted to women and I've also thought that he can be attracted to men (other than Olli) too, but he wanted to have a commited relationship with Olli (like everyone else chooses their life partner at some point in their life without losing their sexuality). I thought it was clear already. I assumed Christian wasn't confused at all and now I see he's so messed up. For me it looks like he's just suddenly playing with Olli's fears because he isn't mature enough to understand himself and then make clear to Olli that he's bi which doesn't have anything to do with their relationship/marriage. I just feel bad for Olli, he's old and mature enough that he shouldn't have to end up playing these kind of games with anyone anymore. This hasn't even started yet and I'm already tired of watching Christian searching his identity for second time, blah, boring. I think Christian has a pattern, when thing get though he goes running to the arms of another person. is like when he was in a relationship with Coco...things were getting difficult btw her and him...and the Ollie comes and says I love you. Im not saying he didnt fell in love with Olli or anything like that. Im just saying he goes running to the arms of the ppl that pay attention to him when things get difficult. Just like in the case with rebecca, she was paying attention to him and wam....they kiss. the miriam thing was also similar, he got drunk bc he was angry with Olli, and the he kisses a woman. And again he got drunk bc he was upset with Olli and the Jessica things happens. So not only has to deal with his sexuality issues but also he has to mature and stop having this pattern. I agree, this is a major problem for Christian!
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Post by lolaruns on May 3, 2011 4:12:51 GMT -5
IMO the only reason why Christian or anybody is confused is because VL has this weird "dare not speak its name" attitude about bisexuality. Again, not saying that Christian or Andi or Rebecca or anybody has to be bisexual, but the fact that they aren't talking about it an option (even if they should decide to decide that that's not what they are) makes any of their claims a lot less believable.
But the show currently (or rather for the last few years) acts like it's only black or white, only gay or straight. So either Rebecca is a lesbian or it was a "mistake". Or either Christian is gay or he is a liar or in denial. Or obviously Andi is not 100% gay so by default he can only be straight.
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jos87
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Post by jos87 on May 3, 2011 4:22:16 GMT -5
IMO the only reason why Christian or anybody is confused is because VL has this weird "dare not speak its name" attitude about bisexuality. Again, not saying that Christian or Andi or Rebecca or anybody has to be bisexual, but the fact that they aren't talking about it an option (even if they should decide to decide that that's not what they are) makes any of their claims a lot less believable. But the show currently (or rather for the last few years) acts like it's only black or white, only gay or straight. So either Rebecca is a lesbian or it was a "mistake". Or either Christian is gay or he is a liar or in denial. Or obviously Andi is not 100% gay so by default he can only be straight. maybe with Tom Chroust (he is gay,no?) this will change. would be particularly grave if a homosexual author would send out the message that if a man fall in love with another man can be for a mistake or for a "test phase".Like you said why don't talk about bisexuality? Maybe what that happen these days and the woman issue was taken just to explain what we are saying here (infact when Chrolli started under Tom Chroust for example Olli was bisexual;he kissed Christian and Coco.With the other authors everything changed)
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Post by psychomary on May 3, 2011 4:28:02 GMT -5
One moment, Olli on bed told Christian that if he cheated with a boy it could be different... but noone tells us it hadn't happened. So why Olli now isn't more jealous watching Chris and Andi talking and is suspicious only for women? And when Chris asks Olli to pay Andi's rent, I can't believe that Olli is disappointed only because his husband didn't told him that previously. Can it be that he's also jealous about their friendship? So I think this SL is really weird from the beginning. And why is Andi scared if the Psycologist will discover that MAYBE he likes men?? Telling it isn't just admitting it? I can't understand this.
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bel7003
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Post by bel7003 on May 3, 2011 7:05:41 GMT -5
One moment, Olli on bed told Christian that if he cheated with a boy it could be different... but noone tells us it hadn't happened. So why Olli now isn't more jealous watching Chris and Andi talking and is suspicious only for women? And when Chris asks Olli to pay Andi's rent, I can't believe that Olli is disappointed only because his husband didn't told him that previously. Can it be that he's also jealous about their friendship? So I think this SL is really weird from the beginning. And why is Andi scared if the Psycologist will discover that MAYBE he likes men?? Telling it isn't just admitting it? I can't understand this. The problem is that the beginning of this S/L is a mess. Why is Olli so worried about women? I mean, he was the one who kissed Coco, while she was Christian's girlfriend. And, as far as I can remember, he was very comfortable with being bi and even said to Coco, in a very condescending way, that there isn't just black and white, there are different shades. And i remember loving that he said that. I can understand that Olli doesn't trust Christian anymore because he cheated on him (let's say he did, for the sake of the argument). Whether it was with a woman or a man should't be that important.
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Post by teachgirl on May 3, 2011 7:34:40 GMT -5
One moment, Olli on bed told Christian that if he cheated with a boy it could be different... but noone tells us it hadn't happened. So why Olli now isn't more jealous watching Chris and Andi talking and is suspicious only for women? And when Chris asks Olli to pay Andi's rent, I can't believe that Olli is disappointed only because his husband didn't told him that previously. Can it be that he's also jealous about their friendship? So I think this SL is really weird from the beginning. And why is Andi scared if the Psycologist will discover that MAYBE he likes men?? Telling it isn't just admitting it? I can't understand this. The problem is that the beginning of this S/L is a mess. Why is Olli so worried about women? I mean, he was the one who kissed Coco, while she was Christian's girlfriend. And, as far as I can remember, he was very comfortable with being bi and even said to Coco, in a very condescending way, that there isn't just black and white, there are different shades. And i remember loving that he said that. I can understand that Olli doesn't trust Christian anymore because he cheated on him (let's say he did, for the sake of the argument). Whether it was with a woman or a man should't be that important. Of course it shouldn't be. It's the cheating (or supposed cheating) that should count. But throughout their whole relationship ( as written post-Chroust) it has been -- he's been written as being bothered by it, and the writers recurrently pushed it in our face, as has been noted. Even when they first thought of adopting (was this storyline in the works even then?), Olli was insecure at even the thought of a surrogate (i.e. a woman) being involved, and Christian had to reassure him that he was done with women and Olli then responded -- I am too. I remember thinking "WTF was that about? Did Olli just bring up his own bisexuality?" But then it didn't come up again. You're right. It is a mess.
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