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Post by lolaruns on Nov 5, 2008 8:22:41 GMT -5
And it was so darn close
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Post by Bonobochick on Nov 5, 2008 9:28:21 GMT -5
As a lifelong resident of California, I am saddened that it looks like Prop 8 will pass. So the night is bittersweet for me. I am so thrilled about Obama's win and Prop 4 being defeated but Prop 8 ... ::sigh:: I know the mayor of San Francisco will have a news conference on Prop 8 later today and from what I heard, California's Attorney General is going to try to keep the same-sex marriages performed between June 17th and November 3rd valid. I am genuinely shocked - and disgusted - with the result of prop 8 .....and California of all places I am not. It has been a tight race all along for Prop 8 and while the coast of California is more liberal, the central valley area is very conservative.
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Davian
Junior Member
Posts: 438
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Post by Davian on Nov 5, 2008 12:07:01 GMT -5
Congratulations America! The world will be a better place from now on. ;D Really sorry about Preposition 8... How is it possible to step back on such an important subject? Sad...
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aldebaran
Full Member
Halunke, Ich liebe Dich so sehr!
Posts: 1,506
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Post by aldebaran on Nov 5, 2008 13:14:18 GMT -5
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 5, 2008 13:18:29 GMT -5
Prop 8 results greatly disappoint me.
What I really don't understand is why such an issue isn't more than just a shrug for most people. That is to say, why most people care so much about who other people marry is a mystery to me. I could potentially understand that there might not be majority support to extend marriage rights to gay and lesbian couples. But why it should be seen as such a problem that it needs to be taken away or circumscribed away from the legislative process so that it can't even be contemplated is something I just don't understand.
This provides yet another reason to really despise the whole initiative process. Such things need to be examined and go through the legislature, IMO.
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 5, 2008 13:33:44 GMT -5
Did everybody who voted for the president there also vote on the Prop? Maybe there are people who have nothing against gay marriage, but who also don't feel passionately enough to vote no and just didn't vote either way? But who could still be persuaded once they truly realize how dire the situation is? After all with all those celebrity weddings being in legal limbo that surely must kick up a shitstorm of publicity.
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Post by Bonobochick on Nov 5, 2008 13:48:05 GMT -5
Did everybody who voted for the president there also vote on the Prop? Maybe there are people who have nothing against gay marriage, but who also don't feel passionately enough to vote no and just didn't vote either way? But who could still be persuaded once they truly realize how dire the situation is? After all with all those celebrity weddings being in legal limbo that surely must kick up a shitstorm of publicity. Propositions are by state, whereas President is federal. There is a chance that people voted for President and not on the propositions but I highly doubt that it was a common occurrence just judging from the sheer volume of people who voted on Prop 8 in Cali (I think last time I looked the total was around 10,000,000 people having voted on the proposition). California, Florida and Arizona all voted on having a ban on gay marriage in yesterday's election (all passed on banning too) but California's Prop 8 was the most well known and the most likely to have a narrow margin of going either way. Sadly it didn't go the way I wanted but a lawsuit has already been filed regarding Prop 8 passing: www.americablog.com/2008/11/lawsuit-to-be-filed-to-stop-prop-8-hate.html
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 5, 2008 13:48:38 GMT -5
Barack Obama has received something like 52% of the popular vote. Only three others from the Democratic Party have done that since the Civil War. Lyndon Johnson, Franklin Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter. Johnson received 61.1% when he was elected. Roosevelt received 57.4%, 60.8%, 54.7%, and 53.4% in his four election victories. Carter received 50.1% when he was elected
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Nov 5, 2008 13:52:46 GMT -5
Re. Prop 8, Amendment 2 et al. results: disheartened, discouraged, dejected, disgusted, dispirited, depressed... feel free to add to the list. ETA (may as well use it now that I know what it means... ) I wanted to write some brilliant comment... but I can't; however I had a look back and I saw restenergy's Post... he expressed exactly how I felt... so here it is again: restenergy wrote:
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louisa
Junior Member
Thanks to rayslady for the Merlin slashiness!
Posts: 463
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Post by louisa on Nov 5, 2008 14:48:26 GMT -5
I am always saddened when otherwise civilised and forward thinking people support something so backward and disgraceful. I particularly dislike it when such measures are taken in the name of religion. This is one person (and I am not alone) who's prayers (and action) will now be focussed on challenging this discriminatory decision.
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nana29
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by nana29 on Nov 5, 2008 15:13:32 GMT -5
I am genuinely shocked - and disgusted - with the result of prop 8 .....and California of all places I am not. It has been a tight race all along for Prop 8 and while the coast of California is more liberal, the central valley area is very conservative. I am not either, but I was still being optimistic that people would notice that they were taking away someones constitutional right to choice. It is just sad, I'm disappointed...I don't know how else to say it.
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Post by tyranamiros on Nov 5, 2008 15:41:39 GMT -5
Like everyone else here, I'm really upset about the Prop 8 results. I doubt the US Supreme Court will take the issue up, because I don't think they'll want to get into that arena at this point, and I think the State Supreme Court's hands are tied by this amendment. However, I do think it's pretty likely that an initiative to repeal the amendment will get on the ballot soon. Because this has come up, here is the most extensive exit poll I could find online: www.sacbee.com/elections/story/1372009.html . I think that the No on 8 campaign (which I worked on) needed to have better outreach to communities not already predisposed to vote against the initiative. It was frustrating to see the people managing the campaign basically write off entire parts of the state--the Central Valley, everything north of Sacramento, the Inland Empire, Orange County--that when taken together make up over half the state's population. But this points to a larger issue: the universal success of anti-gay marriage measures nationwide in the past four years suggests that something about the current message isn't working. The real question moving forward is how can we who support gay marriage convince those on the fence who don't like discrimination generally but get into that polling booth and vote "no gay marriage" across the country to change their votes.
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Post by Bonobochick on Nov 5, 2008 16:10:38 GMT -5
I agree with you, tyranimiros, on the outreach for No on 8 not being good. Remember up until a few weeks ago, there wasn't a lot of effort being done to get out the message compared to Yes on 8. Also, I live in one of the most liberal cities in a very liberal part of California and I saw No on 8 stuff everywhere. Thing is, that was just preaching to the choir. When I left my neck of the woods, I saw a lot of Yes on 8 stuff. I even saw a rally for Yes on 8 in a city about 25 miles from me. I think I mentioned that to GayTime in a discussion we had that they need to move beyond the believers and try to reach the people who were more inclined to vote yes on 8. I have a friend who lives on the fringes of the Central Valley up here and she got a Yes on 8 person knocking on her door last week trying to talk to her about her vote. Anyhoo, here's a good news reference page regarding all the gay marriage propositions that happened yesterday: www.huffingtonpost.com/news/gay-marriage
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Post by GayTime on Nov 5, 2008 17:16:08 GMT -5
NO ON 8 was an utter fail... I appreciated everyone out in the pouring rain waving the NO ON 8 banners - but as B'chick says: In Berkeley or SF you're just preaching to the choir. I am also disappointed to learn now that 8 actually PASSED in LA County... :-(
Update from local news here: Teary- eyed, San Francisco City Hall officials are now turning away same-sex couples who want to get married. The amendment is already in effect, no matter a future court ruling.
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Post by GayTime on Nov 5, 2008 18:30:33 GMT -5
"My name is Harvey Milk - and I want to recruit you. I want to recruit you for the fight to preserve democracy from the John Briggs and Anita Byrants who are trying to constitutionalize bigotry. We are not going to allow that to happen. We are not going to sit back in silence as 300,000 of our gay sisters and brothers did in Nazi Germany. We are not going to allow our rights to be taken away and then march with bowed heads into the gas chambers. On this anniversary of Stonewall, I ask my gay sisters and brothers to make the commitment to fight. For themselves, for their freedom, for their country... Gay people, we will not win our rights by staying quietly in our closets. We are coming out. We are coming out to fight the lies, the myths, the distortions. We are coming out to tell the truth about gays, for I am tired of the conspiracy of silence, so I'm going to talk about it. And I want you to talk about it. You must come out. Come out to your parents, your relatives. I know that it is hard and that it will hurt them, but think of how they will hurt you in the voting booths. Jimmy Carter, you talk about human rights. You want to be the world's leader for human rights. There are 15 to 20 million gay people in this nation. When are you going to talk about their rights? If you do not speak out, if you remain silent... then I call upon lesbian and gay people from all over the nation, your nation, to gather in Washington one year from now... on that very same spot where over a decade ago, Dr. Martin Luther King spoke to a nation of his dreams, dreams that are fast fading, dreams that to many in this nation have become nightmares rather than dreams. I call upon all minorities and especially the millions of lesbians and gay men to wake up from their dreams, to gather in Washington and tell Jimmy Carter and their nation: 'Wake up. Wake up, America. No more racism. No more sexism. No more hatred. No more... And to the bigots. To the John Briggs, to the Anita Bryants... and all their ilk: Let me remind you what America is. Listen carefully: On the Statue of Liberty, it says, 'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free...' In the Declaration of Independence, it is written: 'All men are created equal and they are endowed with certain inalienable rights...' And in our national anthem, it says: 'Oh, say does that star- spangled banner yet wave o'er the land of the free...' For Mr. Briggs and Ms. Bryant... and all the bigots out there: That's what America is. No matter how hard you try, you cannot erase those words from the Declaration of Independence. No matter how hard you try, you cannot chip those words off the base of the Statue of Liberty. And no matter how hard you try, you cannot sing the 'Star Spangled Banner' without these words. That's what America is. Love it or leave it." -HARVEY MILK, GAY FREEDOM DAY 1978
IN THE SPIRIT OF HARVEY MILK, LET US CONTINUE TO FIGHT! San Francisco 6:30 | City Hall 1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place Join The GAYS of DAYTIME - I'll probably be the only one (or one of the few) wearing the UK 'SOME PEOPLE ARE GAY. GET OVER IT!' shirt if you want to say Hi!
Los Angeles 7:00 p.m. | West Hollywood Corner of Santa Monica Blvd and San Vicente Blvd
San Diego 6:30 | The Center 3909 Centre Street Co-sponsored by the Center, EQCA and HRC
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alex
New Member
Posts: 71
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Post by alex on Nov 5, 2008 19:20:20 GMT -5
California is the center of the gay world in a way. We all wished this vote can help us, but....... Today, in my country, everyone see an other face of the USA. 50 years ago, an african-american can't vote, today (or in January) one is the president of the United States of America!!! And he's cute no ? But today in my country, nobody knows that gays all over the world have lost a lot. You've lost a right that i've never had, and nobody cares... it's depressing. Mayor of Paris is gay, but this morning he only speak about Obama's victory, and the hope of the entier world, and how it's good after 8 years of a man who can strangle himself with a pretzel!!!! But nothing about Prop 8. Btw, thx the 48% who say NO. It's more than I was thinking (but less than I was hoping T_T ) Love you all
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Post by Bonobochick on Nov 5, 2008 20:43:33 GMT -5
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mikey
Junior Member
Posts: 548
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Post by mikey on Nov 5, 2008 22:10:19 GMT -5
I am absolutely dumbfounded that this thing passed... Is there any avenue for appeal, to the Supreme Court or such?
This is why you don't let the majority decide on minority rights. That is why we elect political officials... If all they were doing was polling the public opinion that is one thing, but how this in any way should affect law and constitution is beyond me.
One thing I am not clear on is does this also affect civil unions?
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 5, 2008 23:31:16 GMT -5
It may be quicker to mount a repeal effort and win at the voting box, than it would be to win the Supreme Court. But I do believe that either these things will be repealed by the voters or overturned by the Supreme Court in time. The precedents are there for the Supreme Court to use, if the care to apply them. Yet right now, I don't know that I want to try them. I don't want to fail and set a precedent the other way (although Bowers was overturned by Lawrence v. Texas, so there can be hope). We need one or more of those conservative justices to retire and be replaced by a democratic president. (And then it's still not guarantee, of course.) Between Romer v. Evans (which overturned an anti-gay amendment in Colorado), Loving v. Virginia (which overturned anti-miscegenation laws), and Lawrence v. Texas (which overturned sodomy laws in the U.S.) there should be an ample basis on which to overturn all of these anti-marriage amendments around the country. Alas, I don't think, however, that there are the votes on the current Court.
Someday....
At least, I have hope that this will come to pass. Or, rather, I need to hope that it will come to pass.
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louisa
Junior Member
Thanks to rayslady for the Merlin slashiness!
Posts: 463
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Post by louisa on Nov 6, 2008 3:17:17 GMT -5
I caught some of Newsnight over here last night which was celebrating the election of Obama. Many of the pundits, both American and British began to lambast the passing of Proposition 8 and highlighting how equal and civil rights struggles are by no means over. It was good to see the issue addressed immediately by so many people from both countries.
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 6, 2008 3:24:52 GMT -5
I feel it would certainly be preferably if it were overturned by the voters, because it would give the whole thing more validity and finally stop the annoying "activist judges" thing.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 6, 2008 3:52:38 GMT -5
I've seen a number of people express the same preference. I think I would actually prefer that same-sex marriage be passed through the regular legislative process, rather than by court order. But I'd take it either way, as long as it's there. But for these constitutional amendments, I'd actually prefer that they be struck down by the courts. I would prefer it that way for two reasons. First, I really do not like the idea that such rights are something that can be given by a magnanimous people. Rights aren't something that should be available for the giving and taking by popular whim. And if they can be given, they can be take away again. Second, I think it would be important to establish that such initiatives and constitutional amendments cannot stand as a principle of law and the Constitution. I think it is important that it be done on the basis of principle and law instead of popular opinion. Additional, if it was a U.S. Supreme Court decision, it would apply all across the country at one swoop. (I should say that I'm only thinking here of striking down the anti-marriage amendments, not a ruling that would require same-sex marriages be legal in all states.) Having said that, I would never discourage an attempt to repeal these state constitutional provisions by the amendment process that put them there in the first place. Quite the opposite.
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kes
Full Member
Without community, there is no liberation. Audre Lorde
Posts: 1,583
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Post by kes on Nov 6, 2008 11:47:38 GMT -5
I really do not like the idea that such rights are something that can be given by a magnanimous people. Rights aren't something that should be available for the giving and taking by popular whim. And if they can be given, they can be take away again. Well put. That is the reason we have a Bill of Rights, and Proposition 8 seems to violate Amendment 1, nu? For now, we can act. I wrote to GayDayTime about this yesterday, and include some of my thoughts here. (I hope GayDayTime understands how much I appreciate all this blog stands for, all that it does. I am amazed.) Here are some ideas: Initially, I wanted to boycott California (everywhere except San Francisco.) However, I suppose that is not the nicest idea ever conceived. I'm from New York -- there's always been a NY/CA rivarly in the states. Yet, even contacting business in California could be a good idea. We could tell them the importance of the constitution, of equality, of the separation of church and state, and, of course, of love: money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2007/states/California.htmlThe After Ellen site posted a list of businesses to boycott; however, these seem to be small and local: www.afterellen.com/node/39787Of course, the Mormon Church (with its tax-exempt status) poured a great deal of money into this horror. My own thought is that we should boycott all Mormon investments. (I do not mean this as any business owned by an individual who professes to be a Mormon, but businesses actively associated with the church itself.) A list can be found here: questioninglds.blogspot.com/2007/....f-ventures.htmlOf course, we can give money. I'm a member of the ACLU, but I want to research gay organizations. Does anyone have suggestions? Which are the best to donate to? I have donated to the Human Rights Campaign in the past. Is this a good group? I always feel strange as a woman on this site. How must gay men and women feel about women identifying with a love they do not live? If we live a straight lifestyle, we have no notion of what being gay really means, no matter how much we may love Olli or Christian. However, as women we do know what it is to be classed as "l'autre," and as objects. This may be why we identify with Christian and Olli. Out of our experience, we should be able to summon outrage, and that outrage can be energy that we can use for the better. We can make a difference. So I offer this challenge to straight women who venture here: Be witness to and a voice for love, not a voyeur. Do something now . . . don't wait. Then come back on the list and tell everyone what you did. First: get informed. Read the posts on GayDayTime. Read blogs and websites. www.pamshouseblend.com/ is a good one. Today, I will give money to an organization for gay rights. I will talk about the importance of marriage for ALL to people in my life. I'll check in later to tell y'all about it. (Announcing what we will do, then coming back to say we did it is a good thing -- it holds us accountable.)
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kes
Full Member
Without community, there is no liberation. Audre Lorde
Posts: 1,583
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Post by kes on Nov 6, 2008 11:56:30 GMT -5
Quick thought: would a special thread regarding Proposition 8 and gay rights be a good idea? I know this is not a political blog, but people could choose to enter such a thread. Unfortunately, in this world, love has become a political issue. Oy!
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Post by Bonobochick on Nov 6, 2008 12:13:42 GMT -5
More on the Prop 8 drama and the lawsuits being filed here: www.alternet.org/sex/106161/?page=entireSeveral city attorneys have filed lawsuits to overturn 8's passage. This story is far from over. Interesting, though, is how similar bans in Arizona and Florida that also passed on Tuesday are not drawing nearly as much attention. Hmmm. GayTime also went to a rally last night at SF's city hall and posted some photos of it on the blog.
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