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Post by caitlinp on Sept 7, 2008 8:35:36 GMT -5
Ha, saying that the SE was planned for a year, makes what we are seeing worse. They had a year to plan this out, but they couldn't figure out a way where Kieron's death and Niall's revenge wouldn't overshadow the reunion of one of the show's most popular couples. And they couldn't figure out a way to have John Paul and Craig mature just a little bit, or acknowledge and work on their problems. Intead, based on the spoilers, we get every soap cliche thrown at them in the final three days, as we get to see if they can over come contrived obstacles. Let's see what is more interesting, looking at a character driven plot, where people really get to see that JPC are in love, and that they will be more stable than they were before, or amped up drama, where people are wondering what's different now compared to last year, when it was the right decision for JP to leave Craig at the airport. And this is what they came up with after a whole year? The convenient setting up for the SE is precisely, because the SE was planned all along - long before K was cast and before his character was even a priest. James,Guy and BK all hinted/said so last year.
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Post by jaymac74 on Sept 7, 2008 9:04:44 GMT -5
I don't write it - I only watch it and I wasn't commenting on the quality just saying that it's not a convenient ending, which has been tacked on for the SE.
I've said it before I wish that they hadn't killed K, especially at that particular moment, even though I don't like him at all, but his death was planned from the start and all the wishing in the world won't change that.
We haven't seen the final epis yet so shall reserve my comment till then.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 7, 2008 9:57:25 GMT -5
Uhh, for the millionth time, not like it will matter, most JPKer's or at least the ones that I've spoken to, aren't upset because Kieron died, of course we didn't want him to die, we are upset about how poorly the SL has been written and developed. I could accept Kieron dying, if everything was not rushed, and if the SL had been told in a believable and logical fashion, but in my opinion, and in the opinion of others, that has not happened. I could accept Kieron dying if we didn't have a contrived and for drama puposes only marriage proposal, and then a break-up that was inconsistent with the personalities of the characters and the storyline that had been previously told. We would be fine with the story if the writers didn't decide to re-write a story that we have seen unfolding over nine plus months. The point, that some people seem to be missing, is that the writers had a year to come up with this story, but it is still forced, it is still contrived, and it is still inconsistent. With a year to plan things out, the story should be a lot better than it is, and there should be no inconsistencies or changes that put plot over character. In fact, given the prep time, these characters should be fleshed out more than they are, and everything should fit perfectly, as if the writers were putting together a puzzle. But, that's not what we have. And, when did anyone accuse you of writing the scripts. I don't write it - I only watch it and I wasn't commenting on the quality just saying that it's not a convenient ending, which has been tacked on for the SE. I've said it before I wish that they hadn't killed K, especially at that particular moment, even though I don't like him at all, but his death was planned from the start and all the wishing in the world won't change that. We haven't seen the final epis yet so shall reserve my comment till then.
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mj128
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Post by mj128 on Sept 7, 2008 10:45:37 GMT -5
I look at it this way: The story we are seeing now was planned out over a year ago. The marriage proposal, Craig's return, the rekindling of their romance, Kieron's death, the guilt JP feels as a result of it, the pushing away of Craig and the upcoming SE where Craig and JP leave together, and in love.
Now, there are many aspects of the storyline the past 9 months which I don't care for. Yes, parts of the story have seemed rushed, forced, inconsistent, out of place and done for purely plot driven reasons. But, that's the way the writers chose to go. I could moan about it, complain about it till the end of time, I suppose, but what's that going to accomplish?
Some posters here obviously have a great deal of concerns with the storyline at this point. Fair enough, I've had plenty of concerns myself the past few months. But this is what we've been given. It's not perfect, it's not the way I would have written it and apparently, it's not the way many of you would have either but it is what it is.
To me, the story between Craig and JP has always been about true love conquering all. And I think that's what the writers are trying to portray by throwing all these obstacles in front of Craig and JP before they leave together next week. Of course, it doesn't get much worse than having Kieron being found dead by JP. But, I think it also goes to show that while you lose someone you care for very much, your life doesn't just stop. You have to find a way to move on with your life, while still grieving for the loss you've endured. For JP, I think we'll see him realize that the best way for him to do that is to get out of HO and be with his soulmate to begin a new life. There's no set rule on how long it takes a person to grieve over the loss of someone dear to them who has died, nor is there a rulebook as to how the grieving process is to go. Each individual is different, as is the way they deal with traumatic experiences and loss. For JP, maybe, just maybe, the best way for him to move on from the terrible circumstances he's just been through, is to be with the person he loves with all his heart outside of HO. If that's the case and JP is able to fully realize that, then I say good for JP.
You only live once and far too often, we take the easy road out. We don't take a chance on things that we should and we live to regret it. And there's nothing worse than regret. JP seemingly regrets not being totally honest with Kieron before, I would imagine, since he never did tell him the truth about Craig as he told Craig this past week: "It's you, it's always been you" followed by his declaration, "There's one thing I'm not going to do. I'm not going to lie to anyone anymore."
JP will forever regret what he didn't say to Kieron when he was alive. That he was never completely honest. And that's very sad but it's also a learning experience for JP, I would say. You first have to be honest with yourself and honest with the ones you care about. You have to take a chance sometimes and go out on a limb, so to speak, because if you don't, you may just live to regret it and then, it can be too late.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 7, 2008 11:40:50 GMT -5
Actually, the marriage proposal was added on when the writers extended Jake Hendrik's contract. That's one of the reasons it came out of nowhere and felt forced. In fact, as things were originally written, there was suppossed to be a sizeable gap between Kieron dying and Craig returning. Which would have changed a lot of things, because one of the biggest problems many people have is the idea of a SE just two weeks after Kieron's death.
You can have your opinion, that John Paul and Craig has always been about love conquering all, but I don't think that's been the case. I especially don't think it's the case based on how toxic that reltionship was the first time around, and the fact that JP was basically Craig's doormat, and it really doesn't look like anything has changed. If this is suppossed to be about love conquering all, then both characters would be acting in a more mature fashion, and we would see John Paul stand up for himself, instead we see Craig pulling the strings, again.
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mj128
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Post by mj128 on Sept 7, 2008 11:59:28 GMT -5
You can have your opinion, that John Paul and Craig has always been about love conquering all, but I don't think that's been the case. I especially don't think it's the case based on how toxic that reltionship was the first time around, and the fact that JP was basically Craig's doormat, and it really doesn't look like anything has changed. If this is suppossed to be about love conquering all, then both characters would be acting in a more mature fashion, and we would see John Paul stand up for himself, instead we see Craig pulling the strings, again. Well, I think Craig is acting in a more mature fashion this time around. Being supportive of JP upon learning he was in a new relationship and engaged. Telling JP "I just want you to be happy". But, Craig would have to be blind not to notice JP's heart wasn't truly in it. I mean after Kieron took off after the hug between JP and Craig, it took Craig telling JP to go see Kieron for JP to even do so. JP obviously wasn't overly concerned that Kieron was upset. But, Craig is still a person with feelings who is in love with JP and when Craig saw that Kieron and JP were on the outs, his emotions he's had the past year overflowed in his declaration to JP in the living room. Craig knows when JP is lying and vice versa, as they have a history of friendship which their relationship is built on. Craig needed to know, for certain, where JP's feelings truly lied. So, instead of just walking away, he took a chance and decided to find out the truth and hear it from JP directly. Otherwise, he may have lived to regret it and as I explained in my previous post, learning to take a chance is part of maturing and growing up. As for JP, you will have no argument from me that JP has been immature these past 9 months. He absolutely does need to grow up. And, finally, after so long, I think he's starting too. Examples: He finally told Kieron that the whole marriage was moving too fast and at his age, he didn't want to be married but wanted to be doing normal 19 year old things. He didn't lead Kieron on when Kieron asked JP "Is it over?" He told Craig the truth about where his heart lies "It's you, it's always been you" and told Craig that he's not going to lie anymore. And he didn't lie, when Myra asked JP if he was back with Craig, he said yes. He told the truth, even though he knew Myra would be upset. And when Craig said to JP, "It's not our fault, you didn't tell him" in regards to Kieron's "suicide" JP didn't try and pass blame onto Craig like a immature person would have done to try and alleviate their feelings of guilt somewhat. Instead he said "It my fault." He's taking the guilt onto himself. Of course, he shouldn't have to but that's another story. Anyways, my point is, JP, to me, has now begun to grow up in just a very short period of time and I think before he leaves next week, we may just see more of this newfound maturity on his part. Time will tell.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 7, 2008 11:59:54 GMT -5
As for JP, you will have no argument from me that JP has been immature these past 9 months. He absolutely does need to grow up. And, finally, after so long, I think he's starting too. Just so I am not misunderstanding your comment, are you saying that the only time JP has been immature is these last 9 months? The convenient setting up for the SE is precisely, because the SE was planned all along - long before K was cast and before his character was even a priest. James,Guy and BK all hinted/said so last year. IMO, if that is the case, TPTB will have done a disservice to the character of JP if they have him shrug off the guilt so quickly over the death of a man he loved and whose dead body he held in his arms. A whole year and TPTB couldn't write something better? Like Macari said, Craig got a better (and IMO more realistic) send off and TPTB had a lot less time to write a different ending to the original McDean saga once they got GB to extend his contract an additional 3 months. If it is true this SE has been planned for a year then the execution is beyond a disappointment IMO cause it should have been better than what I've seen on my screen the past week. A year to plan a Sunset Ending and that is what TPTB give the audience? They did so well the first time around writing a riveting, gut-wrenching love story. Like I said, I can't fault the actors and I am riveted due to all of their fantastic portrayals of the characters (including Barry's Niall) but at this point I feel like JP/C getting together is like dancing on Kieron's grave because of the craptastic pacing. Dead ex-fiance for JP & also sex together week one, running off together into the sunset week 2? Come on, now! That is AWFUL pacing and for me, it tarnishes the McDean love story. And while I have never doubted JP & C's love for each other, hell I've even re-watched some of the clips from 2006/2007 over the weekend to remind myself why the original McDean story is so wonderful to me, at some point it's like you have to wonder how much roadkill JP/C have left in their wake and at what point it goes from drama to melodrama to farcical. I think in trying to ramp up the drama in such a small amount of time, TPTB over-reached and it's biting them in the ass with some viewers.
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mj128
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Post by mj128 on Sept 7, 2008 12:29:16 GMT -5
As for JP, you will have no argument from me that JP has been immature these past 9 months. He absolutely does need to grow up. And, finally, after so long, I think he's starting too. Just so I am not misunderstanding your comment, are you saying that the only time JP has been immature is these last 9 months? No, I am not saying the only time JP has been immature is these past 9 months. I found him quite immature before, especially during the final weeks of Craig's time in HO last September. I've simply found his immaturity far more pronounced these past 9 months than ever before. IMO, if that is the case, TPTB will have done a disservice to the character of JP if they have him shrug off the guilt so quickly over the death of a man he loved and whose dead body he held in his arms. But, who's saying JP does shrug off the guilt? Is there some written rule that says just because you're feeling guilty, you therefore have to let true love slip away and instead remain miserable and alone? Is there a set timeline for all this? Even when JP finds out Kieron did not kill himself, he'll always regret, and thus feel guilty, that he was never completely honest with Kieron about his feelings. I think that's a given. Before then, though, when JP leaves next week, he may well still be feeling as guilty as he did in Friday's episode, if not moreso. But, like I said, your life doesn't just stop when someone you care about dies. It goes on and you can either give it a shot and take a chance and try and move on with your own life while still respecting the relationship you had with the person you lost or you can push away the person you care about the most, and remain alone. JP will be left with a decision: Either go to Dublin with Craig, whom he loves, for a chance to be happy and start a life, or remain in HO, alone and crying over the guilt he feels and wondering 'what if'? We all know the decision JP makes. Some will call his decision selfish and the wrong one. I call his decision brave and the right one. Oftentimes the hardest thing to do, is the right thing. JP let true love slip away last year and now he'll have a second chance. Second chances don't come around often but when they do, I think you have to go for it. If you don't, you may live to regret it. And JP has enough regrets as it is now, if you ask me.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 7, 2008 12:40:33 GMT -5
I think you missed B-chick's point. The ony signs of immaturity you have pin pointed have taken place during the past two weeks, and if you read the past few pages of comments on this site, you will see that one of the things people are upset about is the writers regressing John Paul's character, so that he is acting as childish as he was last year when he was with Craig. John Paul matured a lot during the last nine months. He actually put Kieron's feelings before his own on more than one occasion, the John Paul of last year and the past two weeks would have never done that. Again, it is very telling that the writers have John Paul acting childish again, just as they re-start his relationship with Craig. And John Paul didn't let love slip away last year. John Paul finally realized that he deserved more than Craig was willing to give him. Not going with Craig was the most unselfish thing that John Paul did all year. He finally did something that wouldn't hurt him or anyone else. Yet, now we have him back at the same place he was last year. Instead of talking things out with Craig, or working out his relationship with Kieron, we have John Paul jumping into bed with Craig. That doesn't show a high level of maturity. Just so I am not misunderstanding your comment, are you saying that the only time JP has been immature is these last 9 months? No, I am not saying the only time JP has been immature is these past 9 months. I found him quite immature before, especially during the final weeks of Craig's time in HO last September. I've simply found his immaturity far more pronounced these past 9 months than ever before. IMO, if that is the case, TPTB will have done a disservice to the character of JP if they have him shrug off the guilt so quickly over the death of a man he loved and whose dead body he held in his arms. But, who's saying JP does shrug off the guilt? Is there some written rule that says just because you're feeling guilty, you therefore have to let true love slip away and instead remain miserable and alone? Is there a set timeline for all this? Even when JP finds out Kieron did not kill himself, he'll always regret, and thus feel guilty, that he was never completely honest with Kieron about his feelings. I think that's a given. Before then, though, when JP leaves next week, he may well still be feeling as guilty as he did in Friday's episode, if not moreso. But, like I said, your life doesn't just stop when someone you care about dies. It goes on and you can either give it a shot and take a chance and try and move on with your own life while still respecting the relationship you had with the person you lost or you can push away the person you care about the most, and remain alone. JP will be left with a decision: Either go to Dublin with Craig, whom he loves, for a chance to be happy and start a life, or remain in HO, alone and crying over the guilt he feels and wondering 'what if'? We all know the decision JP makes. Some will call his decision selfish and the wrong one. I call his decision brave and the right one. Oftentimes the hardest thing to do, is the right thing. JP let true love slip away last year and now he'll have a second chance. Second chances don't come around often but when they do, I think you have to go for it. If you don't, you may live to regret it. And JP has enough regrets as it is now, if you ask me.
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mj128
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Post by mj128 on Sept 7, 2008 12:59:01 GMT -5
For the record, please know I do have a serious issue with the pacing of this storyline. No question whatsoever that it hasn't been handled as well as I wish it had been. That said, I think this is where we differ, Caitlin. I have found JP to be very immature and childish this year. JP knew the damages secret relationships can cause having witnessed first hand the devastation of the reveal last year with Sarah. So, the first real, long term relationship he gets involved in after Craig is with a Catholic Priest whom his mother has let stay in his house and trusted. Is that mature behavior? No, but you can't help who you fall in love with, you may say. Fair enough, but for JP to then lie about it to his mother for two months until they were exposed by Niall. Is that mature behavior? And then, to choose Kieron, someone he has known for a little over four months over his own family. And then for JP to propose out of the blue to Kieron and again lie to his mother and decide NOT to tell her for over a month. Is that mature behavior? You see JP acting childish by being honest for the first time in many months about his true feelings and who has always been in his heart? By being honest with Kieron and telling him things are going to fast with the wedding and wanting to slow it down? By being honest with his mother about sleeping with Craig the day Kieron died instead of lieing about it so she wouldn't be angry with him? By wanting to go to Kieron as soon as he was back with Craig to tell him the truth and declaring that he's not going to lie anymore? Do you find all of that childish and immature behavior? Personally, I find those actions by JP to be quite mature. A far cry from some of his behavior this past year. As for leaving Craig last year, yes JP wanted "more". But, I think another aspect to this whole storyline was that JP did get the "more" he was talking about. He got the man who was openly (as much as a Priest can be) gay, who wasn't afraid of PDA's, who wasn't afraid to shout his love for JP from the city steps, etc. But in the end, it wasn't enough, was it? Because it wasn't Craig. It wasn't the person who JP loved with all his heart. Really, I don't know there's anything more that I can add to this discussion other than to quote JP's words to Craig, "It's you, it's always been you." I think you missed B-chick's point. The ony signs of immaturity you have pin pointed have taken place during the past two weeks, and if you read the past few pages of comments on this site, you will see that one of the things people are upset about is the writers regressing John Paul's character, so that he is acting as childish as he was last year when he was with Craig. John Paul matured a lot during the last nine months. He actually put Kieron's feelings before his own on more than one occassian, the John Paul of last year and the past two weeks would have never done that. Again, it is very telling that the writers have John Paul acting childish again, just as they re-start his relationship with Craig. And John Paul didn't let love slip away last year. John Paul finally realized that he deserved more than Craig was willing to give him. Not going with Craig was the most unselfish thing that John Paul did all year. He finally did something that wouldn't hurt him or anyone else. Yet, now we have him back at the same place he was last year. Instead of talking things out with Craig, or working out his relationship with Kieron, we have John Paul jumping into bed with Craig. That doesn't show a high level of maturity. No, I am not saying the only time JP has been immature is these past 9 months. I found him quite immature before, especially during the final weeks of Craig's time in HO last September. I've simply found his immaturity far more pronounced these past 9 months than ever before. But, who's saying JP does shrug off the guilt? Is there some written rule that says just because you're feeling guilty, you therefore have to let true love slip away and instead remain miserable and alone? Is there a set timeline for all this? Even when JP finds out Kieron did not kill himself, he'll always regret, and thus feel guilty, that he was never completely honest with Kieron about his feelings. I think that's a given. Before then, though, when JP leaves next week, he may well still be feeling as guilty as he did in Friday's episode, if not moreso. But, like I said, your life doesn't just stop when someone you care about dies. It goes on and you can either give it a shot and take a chance and try and move on with your own life while still respecting the relationship you had with the person you lost or you can push away the person you care about the most, and remain alone. JP will be left with a decision: Either go to Dublin with Craig, whom he loves, for a chance to be happy and start a life, or remain in HO, alone and crying over the guilt he feels and wondering 'what if'? We all know the decision JP makes. Some will call his decision selfish and the wrong one. I call his decision brave and the right one. Oftentimes the hardest thing to do, is the right thing. JP let true love slip away last year and now he'll have a second chance. Second chances don't come around often but when they do, I think you have to go for it. If you don't, you may live to regret it. And JP has enough regrets as it is now, if you ask me.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 7, 2008 13:15:49 GMT -5
Just so I am not misunderstanding your comment, are you saying that the only time JP has been immature is these last 9 months? No, I am not saying the only time JP has been immature is these past 9 months. I found him quite immature before, especially during the final weeks of Craig's time in HO last September. I've simply found his immaturity far more pronounced these past 9 months than ever before. IMO, if that is the case, TPTB will have done a disservice to the character of JP if they have him shrug off the guilt so quickly over the death of a man he loved and whose dead body he held in his arms. But, who's saying JP does shrug off the guilt? Is there some written rule that says just because you're feeling guilty, you therefore have to let true love slip away and instead remain miserable and alone? Is there a set timeline for all this? Even when JP finds out Kieron did not kill himself, he'll always regret, and thus feel guilty, that he was never completely honest with Kieron about his feelings. I think that's a given. Before then, though, when JP leaves next week, he may well still be feeling as guilty as he did in Friday's episode, if not moreso. But, like I said, your life doesn't just stop when someone you care about dies. It goes on and you can either give it a shot and take a chance and try and move on with your own life while still respecting the relationship you had with the person you lost or you can push away the person you care about the most, and remain alone. JP will be left with a decision: Either go to Dublin with Craig, whom he loves, for a chance to be happy and start a life, or remain in HO, alone and crying over the guilt he feels and wondering 'what if'? We all know the decision JP makes. Some will call his decision selfish and the wrong one. I call his decision brave and the right one. Oftentimes the hardest thing to do, is the right thing. JP let true love slip away last year and now he'll have a second chance. Second chances don't come around often but when they do, I think you have to go for it. If you don't, you may live to regret it. And JP has enough regrets as it is now, if you ask me. Thing is, I get that John Paul loves Craig and Craig loves John Paul. I have never doubted that and I don't think I've ever expressed doubt in that in any of my posts so for me, it doesn't need constant reiteration as if forgotten. At some point, when will that love stop being used as an excuse for everything that has happened between them and the collateral damage that love has inflicted on others? I don't need to be reminded JP & C love each other. I need the writers to give a plausible reason why JP running off with Craig a week after holding in his arms the body of a man that he loved, a man he was going to marry & who he lived with, a man who JP believes killed himself over their breakup & who the audience saw beg for JP's life with his last few breaths, isn't tacky or heartless or selfish. I need the writers to give me a reason to cheer on their reunion in the wake (literally as well) of Kieron's death other than they love each other, cause them loving each other has never been questioned or the issue. It's everything else that happens and has happened because of that love that the writers need to address, IMO. I love McDean and I adore JP/K, but I have always been a JP fan first and foremost, so I never really gave a shit who JP ended up with since I liked both pairings but I do care if the character is severely tarnished by sloppy writing hence my comment about it being an over-reach by the writers to ramp up the drama to try to squeeze so much in to two weeks. For me, it's not about Craig or Kieron but JP as an individual. At this point, I'd rather he leave alone because he's obviously got a lot to sort out still. If he and Craig get back together in a few months even, I'd be fine, but not now.
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mj128
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Post by mj128 on Sept 7, 2008 13:21:42 GMT -5
Bonobochick, all I can say is I sincerely hope you find the writing of the final episodes and the reasons for JP leaving with Craig at this point as opposed to going off alone and the final speech he makes at the very end to be fitting for and true to the character of JP that we've been following these past two years. No, I am not saying the only time JP has been immature is these past 9 months. I found him quite immature before, especially during the final weeks of Craig's time in HO last September. I've simply found his immaturity far more pronounced these past 9 months than ever before. But, who's saying JP does shrug off the guilt? Is there some written rule that says just because you're feeling guilty, you therefore have to let true love slip away and instead remain miserable and alone? Is there a set timeline for all this? Even when JP finds out Kieron did not kill himself, he'll always regret, and thus feel guilty, that he was never completely honest with Kieron about his feelings. I think that's a given. Before then, though, when JP leaves next week, he may well still be feeling as guilty as he did in Friday's episode, if not moreso. But, like I said, your life doesn't just stop when someone you care about dies. It goes on and you can either give it a shot and take a chance and try and move on with your own life while still respecting the relationship you had with the person you lost or you can push away the person you care about the most, and remain alone. JP will be left with a decision: Either go to Dublin with Craig, whom he loves, for a chance to be happy and start a life, or remain in HO, alone and crying over the guilt he feels and wondering 'what if'? We all know the decision JP makes. Some will call his decision selfish and the wrong one. I call his decision brave and the right one. Oftentimes the hardest thing to do, is the right thing. JP let true love slip away last year and now he'll have a second chance. Second chances don't come around often but when they do, I think you have to go for it. If you don't, you may live to regret it. And JP has enough regrets as it is now, if you ask me. Thing is, I get that John Paul loves Craig and Craig loves John Paul. I have never doubted that and I don't think I've ever expressed doubt in that in any of my posts so for me, it doesn't need constant reiteration as if forgotten. At some point, when will that love stop being used as an excuse for everything that has happened between them and the collateral damage that love has inflicted on others? I don't need to be reminded JP & C love each other. I need the writers to give a plausible reason why JP running off with Craig a week after holding in his arms the body of a man that he loved, a man he was going to marry & who he lived with, a man who JP believes killed himself over their breakup & who the audience saw beg for JP's life with his last few breaths, isn't tacky or heartless or selfish. I need the writers to give me a reason to cheer on their reunion in the wake (literally as well) of Kieron's death other than they love each other, cause them loving each other has never been questioned or the issue. It's everything else that happens and has happened because of that love that the writers need to address, IMO. I love McDean and I adore JP/K, but I have always been a JP fan first and foremost, so I never really gave a shit who JP ended up with since I liked both pairings but I do care if the character is severely tarnished by sloppy writing hence my comment about it being an over-reach by the writers to ramp up the drama to try to squeeze so much in to two weeks. For me, it's not about Craig or Kieron but JP as an individual. At this point, I'd rather he leave alone because he's obviously got a lot to sort out still. If he and Craig get back together in a few months even, I'd be fine, but not now.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 7, 2008 13:49:58 GMT -5
Honestly, we have just learned, I guess, that John Paul has not been honest to Kieron about his feelings. Speaking for myself, and based on what others have said, before two weeks ago, there was no indication that John Paul was lying to Kieron, and that he didn't love him. Two weeks ago, John Paul decided to stop communicating to Kieron, and at the very least, he didn't open up to him about how he felt, that was immature. He let his emotions build up until they exploded in a way that hurt Kieron, that was immature. John Paul not letting his mother boss him around about Kieron, and choosing love, was a mature thing to do. For the record, please know I do have a serious issue with the pacing of this storyline. No question whatsoever that it hasn't been handled as well as I wish it had been. That said, I think this is where we differ, Caitlin. I have found JP to be very immature and childish this year. JP knew the damages secret relationships can cause having witnessed first hand the devastation of the reveal last year with Sarah. So, the first real, long term relationship he gets involved in after Craig is with a Catholic Priest whom his mother has let stay in his house and trusted. Is that mature behavior? No, but you can't help who you fall in love with, you may say. Fair enough, but for JP to then lie about it to his mother for two months until they were exposed by Niall. Is that mature behavior? And then, to choose Kieron, someone he has known for a little over four months over his own family. And then for JP to propose out of the blue to Kieron and again lie to his mother and decide NOT to tell her for over a month. Is that mature behavior? You see JP acting childish by being honest for the first time in many months about his true feelings and who has always been in his heart? By being honest with Kieron and telling him things are going to fast with the wedding and wanting to slow it down? By being honest with his mother about sleeping with Craig the day Kieron died instead of lieing about it so she wouldn't be angry with him? By wanting to go to Kieron as soon as he was back with Craig to tell him the truth and declaring that he's not going to lie anymore? Do you find all of that childish and immature behavior? Personally, I find those actions by JP to be quite mature. A far cry from some of his behavior this past year. As for leaving Craig last year, yes JP wanted "more". But, I think another aspect to this whole storyline was that JP did get the "more" he was talking about. He got the man who was openly (as much as a Priest can be) gay, who wasn't afraid of PDA's, who wasn't afraid to shout his love for JP from the city steps, etc. But in the end, it wasn't enough, was it? Because it wasn't Craig. It wasn't the person who JP loved with all his heart. Really, I don't know there's anything more that I can add to this discussion other than to quote JP's words to Craig, "It's you, it's always been you." I think you missed B-chick's point. The ony signs of immaturity you have pin pointed have taken place during the past two weeks, and if you read the past few pages of comments on this site, you will see that one of the things people are upset about is the writers regressing John Paul's character, so that he is acting as childish as he was last year when he was with Craig. John Paul matured a lot during the last nine months. He actually put Kieron's feelings before his own on more than one occassian, the John Paul of last year and the past two weeks would have never done that. Again, it is very telling that the writers have John Paul acting childish again, just as they re-start his relationship with Craig. And John Paul didn't let love slip away last year. John Paul finally realized that he deserved more than Craig was willing to give him. Not going with Craig was the most unselfish thing that John Paul did all year. He finally did something that wouldn't hurt him or anyone else. Yet, now we have him back at the same place he was last year. Instead of talking things out with Craig, or working out his relationship with Kieron, we have John Paul jumping into bed with Craig. That doesn't show a high level of maturity.
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Post by jsg03jd on Sept 7, 2008 13:51:10 GMT -5
That's my problem as well: how can JP move on so quickly when Kieron is barely six feet under? I guess I'll need to see how it plays out. So sad for Kieron :-(
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2008 14:28:48 GMT -5
I think what I don’t really understand is why there has to be a “sunset ending” for viewers to be happy in the first place. I personally am thankful that there won’t be such an ending, for realism purposes, as I’ve liked this storyline pairing, all imperfections included, for how unique and somewhat realistic it had been standing, especially in soapland. It gave the kind of compelling story that didn’t really leave a lot people indifferent, in a way many other soaps have not been able to, let alone in regards to a gay storyline. I do think that there is genuine love between the characters and I don’t even find it absurd if they end up being together at the end of this, but it just shouldn't be a “sunset ending”, which makes perfect sense to me. It’s not supposed to be all stable with roses and songs with our timetable. Heck, it would be perfect if they decide to give it a go, and it’s shown that JP is not “moving on”, but simply allowing himself, after the Niall reveal , not to waste time and try something he feels he might regret not trying, but making sure to let C know that it would take time. Then, it’s bound to be shaky for a while even if they get together, which would be fine by me. If handled this way, such an ending is acceptable for me. A pretty “SE” with all past forgotten just wouldn’t cut it IMO. I just think indeed that the real test of this pairing, in spite of everything they’ve already faced, would be when they would actually be together on a day to day basis. Having so many hurdles thrown in when there hasn’t yet been an established relationship makes the relationship and the longing for the other all the more attractive. Remove those external hurdles and self-acceptance issues, and then we’ll see the real deal, baggage and all. If they get through it, grow together and reach a stable relationship along the way, more power to them. If they don’t and it ends once there is only 2 of them to worry about, it would make their future love life all the better, with less people to hurt, and give their future significant others a much better shot because the answer to “what could have been” would have been answered. Isn't that acceptable even to McDeaners? Really, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. JMO, of course. Now, I'll just wait and see how this ending is actually done.
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Post by supergirl on Sept 7, 2008 15:26:37 GMT -5
ok stop with the realism problem ;( this is not real life people its a story its not meant to be all day by day reality pls think about it nobody will ever watch a soap that reflex real life all the time first i dont think that a gay priest and a 19old boy falling in love makes the solid grounds of realism or even c and jp relation that was a secret so much time and no one could see it pls and many more things and situations in both storylines
i think that the writers did a good job with the stories let all enjoy it and see the good parts
and the sE is for the fans like myself may i say and i think that both characters deserve it after all the drama and pain let all live the moment of saying goodbye with a smile on owe faces after 2 years of emotions and tears with those great played characters and even kerion that i really like too and nills
hugs
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 7, 2008 16:04:14 GMT -5
supergirl, everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's not a right that is limited to just you or other John Paul and Craig fans.
As far as realism goes, yes we know this isn't real, but people like to watch shows that they can relate to, and which are believable. It is hard to connect with a show or storyline that doesn't play out in a believable fashion, and that includes one in which the characters do things that are inconsistent with thier previous behavior.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 7, 2008 16:06:59 GMT -5
ok stop with the realism problem ;( this is not real life people its a story its not meant to be all day by day reality pls think about it nobody will ever watch a soap that reflex real life all the time first i dont think that a gay priest and a 19old boy falling in love makes the solid grounds of realism or even c and jp relation that was a secret so much time and no one could see it pls and many more things and situations in both storylines i think that the writers did a good job with the stories let all enjoy it and see the good parts and the sE is for the fans like myself may i say and i think that both characters deserve it after all the drama and pain let all live the moment of saying goodbye with a smile on owe faces after 2 years of emotions and tears with those great played characters and even kerion that i really like too and nills hugs Putting on my stylish mod hat:While you may not have an issue with the "realism problem", others do, so you should respect how others feel even if you don't feel that way yourself. This goes for everyone. Disagree respectfully, even back up your opinion with facts but try to remember to draw the line with telling people how they should feel. Thanks.
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Post by supergirl on Sept 7, 2008 16:19:04 GMT -5
ok stop with the realism problem ;( this is not real life people its a story its not meant to be all day by day reality pls think about it nobody will ever watch a soap that reflex real life all the time first i dont think that a gay priest and a 19old boy falling in love makes the solid grounds of realism or even c and jp relation that was a secret so much time and no one could see it pls and many more things and situations in both storylines i think that the writers did a good job with the stories let all enjoy it and see the good parts and the sE is for the fans like myself may i say and i think that both characters deserve it after all the drama and pain let all live the moment of saying goodbye with a smile on owe faces after 2 years of emotions and tears with those great played characters and even kerion that i really like too and nills hugs Putting on my stylish mod hat:While you may not have an issue with the "realism problem", others do, so you should respect how others feel even if you don't feel that way yourself. This goes for everyone. Disagree respectfully, even back up your opinion with facts but try to remember to draw the line with telling people how they should feel. Thanks. first of all i am sorry if i sounded that i dont respect others opinions its not like that no even close i only wanted to make people feel more happy here because all i could read in the past days was bitter words and unhappiness with what comes or what was seen till now we are here to have fun and enjoy (love this word;) and ones again that was not my intention
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 7, 2008 16:24:48 GMT -5
Thank you, B-chick.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 7, 2008 16:33:44 GMT -5
Putting on my stylish mod hat:While you may not have an issue with the "realism problem", others do, so you should respect how others feel even if you don't feel that way yourself. This goes for everyone. Disagree respectfully, even back up your opinion with facts but try to remember to draw the line with telling people how they should feel. Thanks. first of all i am sorry if i sounded that i dont respect others opinions its not like that no even close i only wanted to make people feel more happy here because all i could read in the past days was bitter words and unhappiness with what comes or what was seen till now we are here to have fun and enjoy (love this word;) and ones again that was not my intention Ok. Thanks for explaining that. Tensions are running high with this show right now and everyone needs to just be careful so as not to inflame. People don't have to agree, just disagree respectfully.
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lala
New Member
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Post by lala on Sept 7, 2008 16:49:34 GMT -5
I agree a lot with a lot of what's been said here.
I think for me at this point, the best ending would be JP deciding to be alone for a while and maybe leaving the possibility of a reunion open. But, I think wayyyyyyy too much crazy stuff is going on right now for a definite reunion to seem anything other than at best, tacky. I guess I also like open endings more than definite ones. But, I think I've been saying the same points for a while, so I will just leave it at that.
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Post by jaymac74 on Sept 7, 2008 17:28:46 GMT -5
Caitlin I know we disagree but my posts are not intended to rile you! I did not say that I had been accused of writing the srcipts i merely answered your remark about the storyline -and remarked about that MY wishing that K had not died.
My posts are not a personal attack on you they are expressing my opinion and that is all - we come from opposing viewpoints and shall not change each others - so let us debate in that spirit.
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Post by jaymac74 on Sept 7, 2008 17:34:01 GMT -5
Macari I think what you have said is exactly what I want for JP and C to take a chance on one another, while acknowledging that JP has to grieve both for K and for the fact that both he and C hurt a lot of people in their relationship including each other.
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louisa
Junior Member
Thanks to rayslady for the Merlin slashiness!
Posts: 463
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Post by louisa on Sept 7, 2008 18:24:42 GMT -5
There isn't much I want to add to this thread but I did want to say that I do not think that just because JP loves Craig (and I believe he does) that this does not mean he did not love Kieron. But I think the two relationships were completely different. I don't believe that you can only love one person.
As a long-standing viewer of Hollyoaks (from the very first episode) I'm not particularly pleased at the way this storyline as affected the characterisation of JP or Craig. This is not to say I disliked the McDean pairing (and I sobbed like a baby when it first ended) but to me both JP and Craig became slightly less endearing in what originally seemed to me to be a kind of selfish and deceitful relationship. I want more than anything for the characters to have a happy ending but I do hope that their good qualities that made them so likeable in the first place are not sacrificed in the process.
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