Oliver & Christian as Role Models

[elrohir525]

Hello everyone! I thought I'd try re-posting this idea here, as it wasn't generating much conversation over at the Wet Paint site.

I was just reflecting on Olli and Christian as role models for young gay and bisexual men. I think the majority opinion I've seen is that they're quite positive models, both because they avoid the usual stereotypes of how gay men supposedly look and act, and because they've been quite brave in how they (at least try to ) deal with coming out to others. I also recently read an academic article by a sociologist who argued that young queer people who grow up without positive role models tend to be more likely to adhere to the potentially limiting social stereotypes that are out there about us (at least until they make contact with the community and see what real live G/L/B/T/Q people are like). What do you all think? Are Olli and Christian positive role models? Could they be even better?

On a related note, I wonder about the role models those of us no longer in the "youth" category had when we were growing up. Did you have any at all, and if yes, who? I'd have to say the only really positive one I remember was Svend Robinson, Canada's first openly gay Member of Parliament. He was a very smart, quick-witted (and quite handsome) lawyer; a member of the NDP (our democratic socialist party); and always an outspoken champion of human rights and other important, progressive causes. Sadly, his political career was ended (or at least put on hold) by a scandal ( ), but I'll always be grateful to him for the inspiration he gave me back then. What about everyone else?

[lolaruns]

I'm always a bit sceptical when it comes to holding soap characters to role model standards (though I can't really argue with the fact that tv shows, even relatively shallow tv shows and even soap operas have been influential or been considered influential).

That said, I thought that the words of Dennis Grabosch on the topic was really insightful:


Why do you think that being gay is still not totally accepted in our society?
I think political correctness may be the issue here. I have a feeling that being gay is very more accepted in England, even though there are just as tolerant or intolerant people over there as there are here. Maybe this government should think about treating us as equals in front of law. But as long as marriage, children, church and kitchen are seen as the ultimate in righteousness, I have little hope. I think that the 'community' is a big part of the problem. How can we ask others for tolerance or acceptance if we don't have it among each other? Are were are the gay representatives in politics, sports or whoever else is a public figure? This stupid 'My sexuality is my private business' is nothing more to me than saying 'I'm doing alright, what do I care about others?' I would rather cut off my hand than buying a Patrick Lindner album, but I have respect for his courage. I don't know what I would have become with out [Hella] Von Sinnen, [Georg] Uecker, [Carsten on Lindenstrasse, Ed], [Dirk] Bach, [Maren] Kroymann, [Rainer Werne] Fassbinder, [Freddie] Mercury and all the others who've always been open about it.

-

Patrick Lindner was a really popular crooner in the "Schlager" genre which kinda has the same position as Country and Western has in the US except that it sucks much worse. He came out in the 1990s, married his partner who was also his manager and they adopted a kid. For a while they were treated as the German "Vorzeige-couple" (translate roughly as role model with something/somebody you show off because they are for example are particularly well behaved) till they broke up a few years later. I wasn't really around when he came out, but it strikes me as a brave thing, since the kind of music he makes is mostly popular with older, more rural, more old fashioned people.

Hella von Sinnen, very famous and very visible, shrill and active lesbian comedian. One of the first gay people to reach real visibility in Germany.

Georg Uecker, Carsten from Lindenstrasse.

I think Dirk Bach and Maren Kroymann are two more comedians (it should be note that stand up comedians are very visible and relatively influential in Germany).

Rainer Werner Fassbinder, really influential actor and director.

Incidentally the article in Die Zeit I linked on the James Sutton board had Klaus Wowereit (gay mayor of Berlin with the infamous "I'm gay and it is good that way/Ich bin schwul und das ist gut so" outing sentence) pondering just this issue. He said he doesn't think that him and others (like the leader of the Freedom party coming out made society better and accepting, but that he does occasionally still get letters from gay people and the parents of gay people who thank him for his courage. So his argument was that maybe he didn't really achieve much with straight people, but if he can help even just a handful of gay people growing up that is a good thing.

[psionycx]

I was a teenager during the 80's, and at the time there really weren't any positive gay role models that were discussed very freely in the general media. Gays were usually depicted as countercultural activists with AIDS during the Reagan years, although things were starting to get a little better by the time I graduated high school in '90.

I'm at a bit of a loss to recall any significant gay characters on TV during the 80's. It really wasn't something that was explored. Steven Carrington on Dynasty was maybe the closest, but he went through various phases of being "straight", although he was nonetheless a landmark character.

As for Olli and Christian, well I guess it will depend on how their storyline develops. One might have argued that Roman and Deniz over on AWZ were good role models until it went sour. Ditto Luke and Noah on ATWT. Olli is actually pretty typical of a standard modern gay guy. Christian slightly less so because of the boxing thing, but that's largely because few gays are out in sports (and apparently neither will Christian be, at least at first).

I think that there is less tendency to require gay characters to be stereotypical (read: effeminate) on TV these days because it is now possible to show them being gay via relationships, whereas in the past the only indicator show writers could use was behavior. Olli doesn't need to sashay around because we can tell he likes men because he has relationships (and makes out) with them onscreen. Gay men on TV in decades past were often utterly single and had little, if any, interaction with any gay characters on their shows.

Here's to hoping Olli and Christian become good role models!

[GayTime]

hmm... pre- ollian role models... michael from TALES OF THE CITY, i guess
i caught TORCH SONG TRILOGY on DasErste (can you believe it) in the early 90s and being a huge matthew broderick fan anyway, that influenced me.

lindenstrasse, to be honest, not so much, because i really DESPISE the character (not the actor!)

shortly after i came out, BEAUTIFUL THING became a huge hit, so that was a huge influence.

that time was huge in germany for gays, many comedians came out, soaps were bursting with their gay story lines, there were gay and lesbian television movies (one of which, again on DasErste, facilitated my coming out to my parents), cologne pride became one of the biggest celebrations in germany, period. so that's why i probably sometimes come across as less sensitive when it comes to the whole CO struggle, cause other than the berlin subway incident i mentioned, being gay was never an issue for me.

i think ollian and christian are really not written to be role models, but they might become just that as a welcome side effect. they keep the balance between struggling with christian's coming out to his peers and being happily in love quite well on the show so far, so who knows.

[lolaruns]

I think it's hard to say particularly in the context of Germany since Christian and Olli other than being really hot aren't really much of a landmark couple. Lindenstrasse was probably much more revolutionary in that regard.

And then Tom and Ulli had a happy ending with each other (but I have no idea if they could be considered to have role model status*) and I guess one could argue that Tom and Olli were proof that gay characters could have a normal long term relationship with each other on screen.

*though I get the impression that particularly because the guy who played Ulli was considered extremely hot he got to do interviews about his character becoming gay (with stuff like advice for gay teens and how to come out) in a lot of those trashy teenie magazines like Popcorn or Bravo, which was probably pretty need for visibility in these target groups in particular.

I think things like Ollian and DeRo can be better lesson about what can be shown on tv and what kind of stories can be told rather than lessons about gay people individually. But who knows what the future will bring.

I tend to think that close real people (like friends you make) are probably the best role models. Though it might be possible in such isolated places where you really can't find anybody. I guess thank god for the internet in this case where you can find real life people to talk to about any issues you might have.

[ivaniv]

What I like about this story, that it's not just about the angst and drama of coming out as these stories usually are. Yes, Christian still has a way to go, but it just feels so good to watch the two of them. For a change. Actually ATWT started very well, too, but then it was fvcked up by good people at P and G who were scared shitless that somebody may stop buying their soaps

[tihkon2]

Hmm, my personal opinion is that Olli and Christian aren't intended to be, nor should they be, role models.

All the episodes we've seen so far have been written and filmed before they became a mini-global phenomenom. (Spelling?)
So far it's just been good storytelling intended for the audience of Verbotene Liebe.

I don't think they can be saddled with the responsibility of being role models,and for all we know, they won't want that responsibility.

That's not to say, that a good gay storyline with visibility isn't a good thing. It is. And as has been mentioned, it certainly doesn't hurt for gay people to see themselves reflected on television.

For me personally, I just want to continue to see a well performed and written story. Whether it's good times or bad. Just make it believable. (and filled with cute little smoochies and caresses and hugs and glances and....OK, yeah, I'm in love with these two...)

[elrohir525]

I agree with those of you who point out that Ollian almost certainly weren't intended to serve as role models. But I also think it's inevitable that any character or real person in the public eye will serve as a role model for at least some of the people who identify with them, whether they like it or not....

One thing I've noticed (and please correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't watch a lot of TV) is that the older portrayals of gay characters seemed more likely to have the guys be very nice, upstanding citizen-types (like Matt from Melrose Place and Jack from Dawson's Creek)--maybe out of fear of being accused of "promoting negative values," or something like that. It's with the later programs like Queer as Folk, where having gay characters itself is no big deal, that the men seem to be shown "warts and all."