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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 18, 2011 16:24:46 GMT -5
As well as the effeminate men, who are living in this world. Not every stereotype of effeminate men IS a bad thing. I know that it's something that some folks DON'T EVER want to see, but Olli and Christian have NEVER been shown to be effeminate at all.
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pru
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Post by pru on Jul 18, 2011 16:28:08 GMT -5
Exactly, DD.
So for someone to even hint at that where either one is concerned is ridiculous.
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Post by canadiansunshine on Jul 19, 2011 12:22:07 GMT -5
But what is wrong with a gay man who is "effeminate"? I'm not saying Olli is, but he can be perceived that way, with his really bright clothes, his touchy feely emotional connections with males and females, his tendency to cry much more than Christian. He tends to be the nurturer, placator, and soother in the relationship. But what is wrong with that? There are VERY 'effeminate' gay men out there, and those are the ones one can see and hear from the first time you meet them, but that doesn't mean they should be judged to be abhorrent or a scapegoat for gay stereotyping. There are also transvestites, drag queens, transsexuals. There are guys who love wearing makeup and dress as women. They love bright and sexy clothing. I even know some who are hairdressers! They are all part of the LGBT community and should be accepted as they are. Just because one is trying to break free of a stereotype doesn't mean they should turn on their own.
It's almost a meta-stereotype-in trying to break against stereotypical molds, brings about a stereotype that gay couples MUST present themselves as manly men. There are all kinds of people in the world, with all kinds of communities, and within those communities themselves are all kinds of variations within themselves. One is not more representative of the other, they are just different.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 19, 2011 12:36:21 GMT -5
Exactly, Canadiansunshine.
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 19, 2011 15:43:22 GMT -5
Well, personally I'm simply tired to see in a lot of movies, TV, shows gay man dressed and acting like in "La cage aux folles". Few friend of mine are more effeminate, others are like wrestlers, the major part are not different than etero; the risk to propose in TV the stereotip is that always we will be classified only using it
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Post by canadiansunshine on Jul 19, 2011 16:15:52 GMT -5
Well, personally I'm simply tired to see in a lot of movies, TV, shows gay man dressed and acting like in "La cage aux folles". Few friend of mine are more effeminate, others are like wrestlers, the major part are not different than etero; the risk to propose in TV the stereotip is that always we will be classified only using it Yes, absolutely. I totally get that. I think of stereotypes of minorities in general, and there is so little cross-sectional representation in mainstream media. It seems producers and studios just want to feed into the ideas of the majority, when the masses don't take the time to understand any differently. So that's why I agree that mainstream media needs to show different parts of that community, but sometimes they do what's safe and cater to those masses. It's almost like, "Well, if I make crappy food, you still eat it and eat lots of it, so why should I spend more time and money to make real, quality food? You won't buy it anyways!" So is it the chicken or the egg? Do the studios and makers of media have to lead the way, or do the masses have to change their tastes first and say, "We don't want to eat crap anymore, give us something else?" I am just wary though, when righting a wrong presents a different type of discrimination. Because on a lot of boards and comments I see from different sites and in real life, there is a lot of hostility towards "effeminate" gay guys, as there is a lot of hostility towards "butch" lesbians.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 19, 2011 16:39:59 GMT -5
Well, personally I'm simply tired to see in a lot of movies, TV, shows gay man dressed and acting like in "La cage aux folles". Few friend of mine are more effeminate, others are like wrestlers, the major part are not different than etero; the risk to propose in TV the stereotip is that always we will be classified only using it I am just wary though, when righting a wrong presents a different type of discrimination. Because on a lot of boards and comments I see from different sites and in real life, there is a lot of hostility towards "effeminate" gay guys, as there is a lot of hostility towards "butch" lesbians. That's what I'm seeing as well, CanadianSunshine and I never really thought about it before, until I read that article on AfterElton a couple of months ago, about effeminate portrayals and how it's viewed (positively and negatively) by gay and bisexual men. The article and the numerous responses was eye-opening for me.
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kaze
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Post by kaze on Jul 26, 2011 10:48:15 GMT -5
I think the idea that Christian finds consolation with other girls is acceptable and understandable, at least to me. I'm myself in love with a boy right now but whenever I feel sad because of him, I run back to the girl who is intimate with me to feel comforted. So Christian's behavior towards Olli is not unrealistic at all
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nishi
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Post by nishi on Jul 27, 2011 14:42:33 GMT -5
Hi, I've been visiting this forum for a while now but this is my first post.
I came up with this theory recently as to why Christian has been going back to women every time he and Olli had a problem. I think Christian has been always more insecure in this relationship than Olli even though he is the one who always cheated on Olli. May be Christian doesn't believe that Olli loves him as much as he loves Olli. Or, he is insecure about how Olli feels about their sex life. See, Olli is good looking, Charming, everybody likes him. So may be somewhere in the back of his mind Christian thinks he is out of his league. May be he thinks Olli would leave him if someone better came along. Now since we all know that Christian has a huge ego problem, whenever he feels threatened, he does something stupid that would hurt Olli before he could hurt him. Did I make any sense? Im not sure anymore
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Post by dalphine on Jul 27, 2011 14:53:18 GMT -5
nishi...I agree with your post I think you made a good point to why Christian does what he does.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 27, 2011 15:05:34 GMT -5
So, if Christian does these things during his relationship with Olli, because of fear of being hurt, then will Olli have to be always forgiving over what he does, because of Christian not being able to deal with his own insecurities?
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on Jul 27, 2011 15:11:29 GMT -5
Hi, I've been visiting this forum for a while now but this is my first post. I came up with this theory recently as to why Christian has been going back to women every time he and Olli had a problem. I think Christian has been always more insecure in this relationship than Olli even though he is the one who always cheated on Olli. May be Christian doesn't believe that Olli loves him as much as he loves Olli. Or, he is insecure about how Olli feels about their sex life. See, Olli is good looking, Charming, everybody likes him. So may be somewhere in the back of his mind Christian thinks he is out of his league. May be he thinks Olli would leave him if someone better came along. Now since we all know that Christian has a huge ego problem, whenever he feels threatened, he does something stupid that would hurt Olli before he could hurt him. Did I make any sense? Im not sure anymore I think both of them are insecure about the other I believe Christian has abandonment issues, he has always been afraid that Olli would one day abandon him too. Plus as you said, Olli is very social, a city boy, while Christian is a country boy. When Olli told Christian, he was boring, and he only wanted to do boring things, I believe this was a great punch for Christian. Christian is a coward, for the pain thing, if anything will hurt him he hides, or just backs away. So he looks consolation for that pain in a women's skirt, we could even psychoanalyze him, and say he is looking for his mother there.............. But I feel also he goes to women bc he wants Olli's attention for him, he is really insecure, and when he doesnt have Olli's attention on him he gets way more insecure, like he is in danger to lose him. IMO Olli's is Christian's sun, his guide, what makes him a better person. On the other side we have Olli, who knows Christian was straight before meeting him, he also knows that Christian havent express any interest in other men apart from him, plus Christian tends to cheat him with women. I feel Olli thinks that by "Making him" gay, he rob of Christian of something. I have seen this in many gay SL, the one that has always been gay is afraid or robbing the other of a "normal" life, (btw I think this is BS) The thing is that I think Olli also has this fear, so to give Christian something back, he decided to give him marriage and kids, but all of this was doomed, and all the problems started, bc Olli became more insecure when he realized that Christian didnt want children with "HIM", he didnt realize it wasnt he didnt want foster children. Olli knows he doesnt have anything or any way, to secure Christian. So he is soo lost, SPOILER Rafael would be good to Olli, he will be able to see his worth, and it would also be good for Christian, since well Im expecting Rafael to come and try to woo Olli, but Olli ending up choosing Christian. In that way, Christian would realize, that Olli wont abandon him for another guy, even if he is boring SPOILER ;D
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nishi
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Post by nishi on Jul 27, 2011 15:19:50 GMT -5
@difficult Diva Nope. I'm not defending him nor am I implying that it is Olli's fault . I am trying to understand why he always goes back to women in spite of being aware of Olli's fears. All of us were wondering what explanation Christian could have when Olli finally lets him talk. May be if Christian expresses his fears, Olli might assure him somehow that he always loved him (and why he loved him) and when Christian finally realizes that Olli truly loves him and wants to be with him, he might actually stop being childish. But insecurities like this are hard to get rid of. dalphine Thanks
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nishi
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Post by nishi on Jul 27, 2011 15:41:30 GMT -5
gabyta07 Yeah! but in this case Olli is not aware of Christian's fears and thats why he thinks he is depriving christian of a normal life (is there such a thing?) yes, Christian wanted a wife, 2-3 kids, a dog and a house with white picket fence! but he realized he cannot have all that and he was more than ok with it. All he wanted was to be with Olli nothing else mattered. But when Olli wanted to have a family preferably now!, C thought he wasn't 'enough' for Olli. It is something Christian has used many times in the show "Why, am I not enough for you"? meaning - He wants something else, may be he is not happy with me.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 27, 2011 15:47:13 GMT -5
Nishi, I never thought that you were trying to defend or justify Christian's behavior with your theory. I'm just trying to figure out what more can Olli do to try and get Christian to really see that Olli loved (or loves him) because of who Christian is already. Yet, that love that Olli has, can't overide the fact of the loss of faith and trust that Olli had in Christian and that can't be easily gained back. It'll be a long, hard, painful and hopefully successful process. Something that Olli, Christian (and hopefully the audience) will say was worth the wait (in time and effort).
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nishi
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Post by nishi on Jul 27, 2011 15:54:22 GMT -5
@difficult Diva
True. But I hope that if Olli finds out about Christian's insecurities (if it is true), he'll feel better than now, where he thinks Christian was always a hetero and their relationship all these years was a sham.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 27, 2011 16:02:33 GMT -5
Yes, well hopefully Christian will stop hitting that punching bag and actually admit some important and vital things about what he did (even if it's only to himself), because Olli's still too pissed off and hurt to listen. It'll be a nice first step on the road to a longterm reconciliation.
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nishi
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Post by nishi on Jul 27, 2011 16:06:50 GMT -5
Yes. Hopefully
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on Jul 27, 2011 16:07:16 GMT -5
gabyta07 Yeah! but in this case Olli is not aware of Christian's fears and thats why he thinks he is depriving christian of a normal life (is there such a thing?) yes, Christian wanted a wife, 2-3 kids, a dog and a house with white picket fence! but he realized he cannot have all that and he was more than ok with it. All he wanted was to be with Olli nothing else mattered. But when Olli wanted to have a family preferably now!, C thought he wasn't 'enough' for Olli. It is something Christian has used many times in the show "Why, am I not enough for you"? meaning - He wants something else, may be he is not happy with me. Yeah and thats why I think he said the famous phrase, I cant ask you for your forgiveness 1000 times, I can fight for you, but only if you tell me if you still care. I never thought he was asking for a promisse that he was going to be forgiven one day, he was asking Olli IMO if Olli was still in love with him...and Olli didnt answer So it just fed more his insecurities
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nishi
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Post by nishi on Jul 27, 2011 16:11:56 GMT -5
gabyta07 I agree. It is sad.. After everything they've been through, in spite of loving each other so much, they have come to this stage.
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pru
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Post by pru on Jul 28, 2011 20:09:39 GMT -5
ICAM, DD.
The punching bag stuff needs to stop. I'm so tired of seeing hitting the bag and screaming. He needs to stop being so primal and open up his mouth and let some words come out and tell Olli something that makes sense, instead of the drivel he has been coming up with.
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Post by lolaruns on Sept 13, 2011 6:02:17 GMT -5
Duplicated I get what you are saying but i think peoples perception of homosexuality is based primarily on visible out gay men who are not in the majority of gay people and Christian is not the typical guy at school everyone knew didn't like girls but wouldn't admit it till he was 18 or whatever. Most 'out' gay men especially when young are kinsy 6 or close to it and have little choice but come out therefore this minority is the gay men we all "know'. and understand. In reality most gay men are more than capable of having sex with women especially when young and horny, which is why they don't come out until later life if at all Some may lose the ability to be aroused by women later in life which can force the issue or they just get tired of living a lie and not being with the one they love and come out, but sadly often they just stay in the closet and cheat and are deeply unhappy. Many gay men will identify as bisexual at first but then realise women are not for them emotionally, true 50/50 bisexual males who can fall in love with either sex are not that common although the same cannot be said of women who oddly are often bisexual rather than true lesbians. So for me Christian's story is more real because he didn't think he was gay till he fell in love with Olli and because he can have sex with either sex he may still think he's bisexual and could fall for a women next time. In reality that is probably not the case but he won't realise that now. Olli has said he's bi but I think he means it only in the sense that he has and can have sex with women but knows full well love is only with men which to my mind makes him gay. Much depends on each of our definitions of bisexuality I suppose society says it's who you have sex with but most gay people know it's who you can fall in love with that counts. I guess for me I tend to think of the flipside. Like black men who are married and have sex "on the downlow". Or those Christian Republicans who have sex with men in bathroom stalls or go on vacation with a rentboy. I wouldn't call what they have with a rentboy love either, but even if they _truly_ see their love and their identity with their family, I'm just not sure I would call them straight either (and can you really look into their hearts and say that they really get nothing out of it?). Because there simply is a difference when on on hand you have the politicians who will cheat on their cancer ridden wife with another woman who impregnate multiple house staff or hire multiple callgirls because of some urge and others have the urge to have sex with men in bathroom stalls or go on vacation with a rentboy. Even if love plays no role into it at all it is still different. It doesn't really help that we don't know and will probably never know whether Christian is capable of falling in love with "men". Like even if Christian ever had a relationship with another man, who knows that it would be anywhere near as deep as he has with Olli (considering that Olli was his first major relationship in a lot of ways)? And that it wouldn't be a shallow as what he has with Theresa or as functional but still comparatively not as deep as he had with Nico and Coco? And in the end it is called bi/homo/heteroSEXUAL. If we make it exclusively about love, wouldn't err, a-holes who never fall in love in their live and who never have a deep relationship with anybody be asexual by this definition? Even if they exclusively have sex with only one gender they just don't fall in love with anyone, whether of that gender or of the opposite simply because they a-holes or sociopaths or too egocentric? ;D
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Post by katemonster on Sept 13, 2011 7:12:00 GMT -5
Duplicated I get what you are saying but i think peoples perception of homosexuality is based primarily on visible out gay men who are not in the majority of gay people and Christian is not the typical guy at school everyone knew didn't like girls but wouldn't admit it till he was 18 or whatever. Most 'out' gay men especially when young are kinsy 6 or close to it and have little choice but come out therefore this minority is the gay men we all "know'. and understand. In reality most gay men are more than capable of having sex with women especially when young and horny, which is why they don't come out until later life if at all Some may lose the ability to be aroused by women later in life which can force the issue or they just get tired of living a lie and not being with the one they love and come out, but sadly often they just stay in the closet and cheat and are deeply unhappy. Many gay men will identify as bisexual at first but then realise women are not for them emotionally, true 50/50 bisexual males who can fall in love with either sex are not that common although the same cannot be said of women who oddly are often bisexual rather than true lesbians. So for me Christian's story is more real because he didn't think he was gay till he fell in love with Olli and because he can have sex with either sex he may still think he's bisexual and could fall for a women next time. In reality that is probably not the case but he won't realise that now. Olli has said he's bi but I think he means it only in the sense that he has and can have sex with women but knows full well love is only with men which to my mind makes him gay. Much depends on each of our definitions of bisexuality I suppose society says it's who you have sex with but most gay people know it's who you can fall in love with that counts. I guess for me I tend to think of the flipside. Like black men who are married and have sex "on the downlow". Or those Christian Republicans who have sex with men in bathroom stalls or go on vacation with a rentboy. I wouldn't call what they have with a rentboy love either, but even if they _truly_ see their love and their identity with their family, I'm just not sure I would call them straight either (and can you really look into their hearts and say that they really get nothing out of it?). Because there simply is a difference when on on hand you have the politicians who will cheat on their cancer ridden wife with another woman who impregnate multiple house staff or hire multiple callgirls because of some urge and others have the urge to have sex with men in bathroom stalls or go on vacation with a rentboy. Even if love plays no role into it at all it is still different. It doesn't really help that we don't know and will probably never know whether Christian is capable of falling in love with "men". Like even if Christian ever had a relationship with another man, who knows that it would be anywhere near as deep as he has with Olli (considering that Olli was his first major relationship in a lot of ways)? And that it wouldn't be a shallow as what he has with Theresa or as functional but still comparatively not as deep as he had with Nico and Coco? And in the end it is called bi/homo/heteroSEXUAL. If we make it exclusively about love, wouldn't err, a-holes who never fall in love in their live and who never have a deep relationship with anybody be asexual by this definition? Even if they exclusively have sex with only one gender they just don't fall in love with anyone, whether of that gender or of the opposite simply because they a-holes or sociopaths or too egocentric? ;D You make a good point but for me unless those guys going off to rent boys just have a 'kink' for the forbidden or see it as a power thing which is a seperate from sexuality then although they may not love the rent boy they are in a sense seeking /acting out the romantic senario they need even if it's not the real thing it's still closer than their reality. You are right about Chris the writers will probably never show us what's going on with his sexuality but until it's over i'll keep hoping.
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Post by lolaruns on Sept 13, 2011 8:07:55 GMT -5
But by that logic isn't Chris doing that too with Theresa? Acting out some sort of scenario?
And who says that the men in question want anything deeper than a rentboy? Lots of men are dogs who are ok with just sex whether the prostitute in question is male or female, without it meaning anything deeper for them/with them wanting anything but a deeper emotional/romantic attachment.
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philos
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Post by philos on Sept 13, 2011 8:38:10 GMT -5
But by that logic isn't Chris doing that too with Theresa? Acting out some sort of scenario? And who says that the men in question want anything deeper than a rentboy? Lots of men are dogs who are ok with just sex whether the prostitute in question is male or female, without it meaning anything deeper for them/with them wanting anything but a deeper emotional/romantic attachment. My dearest Lola and kate, sometimes you are too deep for me; maybe because I feel things that you are describing, as a gay man that before his 20th was used to have girls, but always liking boys. Our society is showing a correct way to proceed in life, so it's so simple to follow it and don't considere or care about self feeling until something important happens; it can be to fall in love with someone, as for Christian, or an epifany (I know, I'm massacrating english, but I don't know the right terms). From my personal point of view, Christian is able, as a lot of gay men, to have sex with women and sometimes it can be funny, but starting from his first true lovestory (Olli), he couldn't be in love with a woman and more the sex too will be not so good (remember Monica Bellucci ).
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