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Post by angelarose on Jul 28, 2011 7:03:45 GMT -5
If the Soap tells you its cheating, then its cheating, our opinions, tastes or principles do not matter. The writer's words are law, so if they do say is cheating, then it is. Its like when you watch a movie, and you think the actrees is very pretty, right? and then the whole movie the characters keep saying how ugly she is...then the character is ugly, bc the SL says so. So, then that also means that Christian did have a drunken threeway with Andi & Theresa inside of NL, because the SL says so. You could say that, I suppose. Although the storyline has left this somewhat ambiguous by having the characters themselves not remember exactly what happened that night. So, there is some leeway there to look at the situation and whatever information and details we've been given and believe it happened or not.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 28, 2011 7:14:02 GMT -5
So, I'm choosing to believe that the drunken threeway sex happen between Christian, Jessica and Andi, because even with Andi & Christian not remembering exactly what happen, the writer's words are law. Until, the writers come up with a re-write and make Jessica say that nothing happen, then it did actually happen, in my opinion.
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Post by angelarose on Jul 28, 2011 7:37:35 GMT -5
That's a fair way to look at it and well within your rights. I was just saying that the 'writer's law' wasn't as final as saying beyond a shadow of a doubt that it happened (by leaving two characters unsure of what happened) or even showing it happening. So, in my opinion, it is left by the writers somewhat up to interpretation by the audience, given the information we have, to believe whether or not it happened. You choose to believe it, I find it dubious.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 28, 2011 7:40:27 GMT -5
Well there are also the official character descriptions who state is like a fact
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 28, 2011 7:46:07 GMT -5
LOL Really, LolaRuns. Is that up on the official site or something? Like in the individual character bios?
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Post by angelarose on Jul 28, 2011 7:47:13 GMT -5
That may be true (I haven't read them all so I don't know exactly what they say), but I don't expect them to give away something that may be a plot twist in a character bio. Besides, don't the character bios state other things that aren't, at least yet, entirely accurate or representative of what we've seen on screen? So I'm simply sticking with what's been shown on screen, and what's been shown, in my opinion, has left an opening for the possibility that it didn't actually happen. But, again, that's just my opinion.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 28, 2011 7:58:54 GMT -5
LOL Really, LolaRuns. Is that up on the official site or something? Like in the individual character bios? Yes. The ones from the official website, they were also in the official press kit. Andi: Als er sich bei einem Junggesellenabschied von Jessica verführen lässt... = when he lets himself be seduced by Jessica during a stag party... Christian: Doch nach einem Ausrutscher mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica ... = After his lapse with the maid Jessica ... Helena: Selbst nachdem Andi sie betrogen hat, ... = Even after Andi cheated on her ... Olli: Doch Christian betrügt ihn mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica = But Christian cheats on him with Jessica the maid ______________ No "After a drunk night with Jessica he thinks..." or "can't remember". Technically they have given away way bigger plot twists (like announcing couples would be together months and months before, or giving away that Helena would run Phil over with a car) in those role bios before. These are imo written by the writers at the beginning of a new plot season primarily for the press and they represent how the writers see the characters at the moment. (that the fans often disagree with how the writers see a character [like: Rebecca is a sweet girl, Helandi are a dream couple, Dagen is a couple to root for] is a different issue). Of course these things may change over time (just like writers might change their opinion over time or new writers might come). But I do think that they are a good barometer for what the forseeable future might bring. Plus, I still think that it should impact the discussion comparatively little because regardless of what actually happened, Christian and Olli still, to their best knowledge totally think it happened. Olli is still hurt as if it was real because to his knowledge it is. And Christian still feels or should feel as guilty as if it was real (unless he starts having doubts which he should then announce publicly). Personally, I don't dig those insecurity things at all. It's like the "he had a bad childhood" of your serial killers, wifebeaters or purse snatchers. If somebody steals from me for example but has a bad childhood I would still be angry and I would still expect reparations. The problem is that for me if I'm really supposed to believe that Christian is really this stupid, this insecure, this helpless that he is basically "unfit to stand trial" [ MOD EDIT] and he shouldn't have been in a relationship with anybody in the first place, if I'm supposed to buy that he is *that* incapable.
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Post by katemonster on Jul 28, 2011 8:02:59 GMT -5
That may be true (I haven't read them all so I don't know exactly what they say), but I don't expect them to give away something that may be a plot twist in a character bio. Besides, don't the character bios state other things that aren't, at least yet, entirely accurate or representative of what we've seen on screen? So I'm simply sticking with what's been shown on screen, and what's been shown, in my opinion, has left an opening for the possibility that it didn't actually happen. But, again, that's just my opinion. I agree it's not canon for me till it's shown on screen. There was nothing, not even flirting let alone kissing seen on screen so unless it was in deference to Jana/Thore and them not wanting to kiss on screen then the ambiguity was left in for plot reasons. I still kinda hope it was Andi and Chris ,now that's a flashback i'd like to see.
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Post by suvitar234 on Jul 28, 2011 8:07:25 GMT -5
So I'm simply sticking with what's been shown on screen, and what's been shown, in my opinion, has left an opening for the possibility that it didn't actually happen. But, again, that's just my opinion. I´m with you on this one Angela. Nothing is certain about that stag night. Until it is I choose to think that Jessica is lying or at least exaggerating about what happened.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 28, 2011 8:09:17 GMT -5
Well, LolaRuns. Christian does seem to have problems in verbalizing his thoughts and inner emotions without having his Christian Whisperer interpret what he's feeling, or he's hitting his punching bag, while letting out a primal scream, or he continues to have "sexy fun times" with the woman that he told Olli, he regrets doing anything with, but still hasn't officially broken things off with her, yet. Maybe, it's because of the verbalization problems?
I don't dig those insecurity issues myself, because if Christian can't get over his issues on his own, then if he gets back with Olli, Olli's going to continue to have to deal with the possibility of these "lapses" coming up from time to time in their future. Now, it's wonderfully romantic to believe that another person's faith in you, can keep you from making the same mistakes over and over again, but you (as the individual) has to make the step for yourself in overcoming those things that you find lacking about yourself. You've got to have faith in you, before you can believe that someone else does.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 28, 2011 8:09:32 GMT -5
But by that logic can't we also say that just because the characters call it cheating maybe they are wrong or might change their mind at an undefined point in the future? (just like Jessica might reveal something different at an undefined point in the future)
IMO it's never fair to make somebody else the sole guardian of your sanity and then blame them if they don't keep you from doing something bad. Nobody deserves to have this kind of impossible responsibility heaped on them (a point of view I cultivated during the Helena/Tristan story btw; ).
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Post by angelarose on Jul 28, 2011 8:54:26 GMT -5
Well, my logic was that they left whatever happened at the bachelor party ambiguous. They didn't leave the characters' references to the 'cheating' ambiguous. Besides, I don't think they can be "wrong" about their own view on whether they were cheating or not. Could they change their mind? I suppose. But at this point in time their own view on whether it was cheating isn't really ambiguous or open to interpretation, while the night of the bachelor party is. In my opinion, of course.
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LadyArmand
Full Member
"Fortune favors the bold..." Virgil
Posts: 1,602
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Post by LadyArmand on Jul 28, 2011 8:56:32 GMT -5
Like many here at the beginning of this whole mess I was of the mind that Christian didn’t actually sleep with Jessica. There was and is an element of doubt about it, he still can’t remember nor can Andi all we really have is a couple of pictures of them in compromising positions and Jessica’s word for it and that is about as trust worthy as a three dollar bill. Then I had an epiphany which led me to the conclusion that, at this point it really doesn’t matter if it actually happened or not. I say that because too much damage has been done since that night for it to matter. Also the fact that it could have happened because Christian was drunk and mad at Olli and we know that when he is drinking and mad at Olli and the opportunity arises he is capable of doing something this stupid and destructfull is more than enough. The fact that he has a history of lapses (and I loath the word lapse in this instance because it implies a singular event, for Christian however this is not a singular event but is in fact another incident in a disturbing pattern of events) which are meant to “put Olli in his place.” And while Olli has done some vapidly boneheaded things, comparing him wanting a child and doing something stupid and mindless (which wasn’t intended to hurt Christian) to a pattern of infidelity which by its very nature is intended to wound the person you claim to love more than anything in the world rings a bit specious in my humble opinion. It equates the two and thereby in some way seems to excuse/justify the actions Christian has taken since then. Which again in my opinion it does not.
Christian gets mad at Olli for doing something stupid, and because of that he cheats on Olli. Christian gets mad because Olli pushes him away so he first flirts with Theresa. Christian gets mad because Olli doesn’t immediately after a moment when he was contemplating ending his life out of hurt and guilt about many things the cherry on the top of it all being Philip’s accident, and Christian gets mad and has sex with Theresa in Charlie’s apartment. I know the laws of cause and effect but Christian’s action since the night he may or may not have slept with Jessica, have been more cause than effect. What he has done since that night has caused Olli to react the way he has ( again before anyone starts with the whole “Saint Olli” thing in response to what I’m saying or have said, I’m in no way saying Olli has no responsibility for any of this, he defiantly does and he needs to claim it before he can move on to healing in a real way and either forgiving Christian and taking him back or forgiving Christian and moving on without him. But for his own sake he needs to forgive Christian regardless of whether or not that leads to a reunification). Olli needed time to process everything in his head and he couldn’t do that with Christian around. He needed and asked for time. Christian wanting to be forgiven when he wanted to be forgiven didn’t give him that time or space. On the spot of the accident Olli needed someone to just be there for him without an agenda, and before the botched kiss, we could clearly see (or at least I could) Olli moving closer to Christian both physically and emotionally. Only to have the comfort he was seeking in the arms of someone familiar someone he felt safe with ripped from him. And I say safe because if he didn’t feel safe he would never have let Christian hold him. Nor would he have allowed Christian to get as close to him emotionally. And to feel safe there has to be trust, so on a level he may not have known still existed he still trusts Christian to be there for him when he really needs him. Or at least he did.
Christian’s trust and faith in Olli may have been shaken/damaged. So he went and took a sledge hammer not only to Olli’s trust and faith in him, but to their relationship and the life they had been building for three and a half years. In my book one does not equate the other nor does one excuse the other. In my book a pattern of infidelity does not equate Olli sleeping with someone after having one been told by his husband that in all likelihood he cheated with Jessica and then witnessing his husband cheating with another woman in a place Christian knew Olli could easily find out about it. Olli’s ONS does not make him even with Christian’s pattern of infidelity, or up until recently (Christian finding out that Olli did not take vows of celibacy) his ongoing tryst with Theresa.
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Trish
Senior Member
Posts: 9,631
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Post by Trish on Jul 28, 2011 8:57:09 GMT -5
LOL Really, LolaRuns. Is that up on the official site or something? Like in the individual character bios? Yes. The ones from the official website, they were also in the official press kit. Andi: Als er sich bei einem Junggesellenabschied von Jessica verführen lässt... = when he lets himself be seduced by Jessica during a stag party... Christian: Doch nach einem Ausrutscher mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica ... = After his lapse with the maid Jessica ... Helena: Selbst nachdem Andi sie betrogen hat, ... = Even after Andi cheated on her ... Olli: Doch Christian betrügt ihn mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica = But Christian cheats on him with Jessica the maid ______________ People will believe what they want, but it's intereting that for Olli/Helena they say cheated. Plain and simple. That's because in their eyes that is what has happened. For Andi it says seduced. Jessica putting the ice down Andi's shirts and taking the picture, is part of him being seduced. With Christian it says a lapse. He was there getting drunk and let himself get into a terrible situation. IMO, if Andi/Christian had both cheated, beyound a shadow of a doubt, they would have said cheated in the bios. Not used words that could mean any of a number of things.
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Post by blaykee on Jul 28, 2011 9:03:03 GMT -5
I'm afraid of this too blaykee, I don't know if it's good job Jana or good job writers. She's just crudely honest, no matter who likes it and who doesn't ;D Just like a saying in Spanish that's say "No se muerde la lengua" She doesn't bite her tongue I'm not afraid of liking her, she totally ROCKS in my book and she cracks me up. And I love her honesty also. She totally has a friendship crush on Olli and even though he acts like he can't stand her, she is growing on him. I also FLOVED hearing her and Olli speaking English...too cute. yeah the English scenes were hilarious.
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Post by teachgirl on Jul 28, 2011 9:41:13 GMT -5
On the spot of the accident Olli needed someone to just be there for him without an agenda, and before the botched kiss, we could clearly see (or at least I could) Olli moving closer to Christian both physically and emotionally. Only to have the comfort he was seeking in the arms of someone familiar someone he felt safe with ripped from him. And I say safe because if he didn’t feel safe he would never have let Christian hold him. Nor would he have allowed Christian to get as close to him emotionally. And to feel safe there has to be trust, so on a level he may not have known still existed he still trusts Christian to be there for him when he really needs him. Or at least he did. I think this interpretation of what was happening at the accident scene is a really sound reading of what Olli wanted and needed at that moment, based on his reactions to Crhistian.I know some people have blamed Christian for trying to kiss Olli at that moment. Your reaction (and please correct me if I'm misreading) seems more critical of Chrsitian's reaction to Olli's rejection of the kiss (i.e. running to Theresa). I believe that Chrsitian's mistake was not in kissing Olli, but in misunderstanding Olli's reaction to it, and then, of course, starting up with Theresa. What I perceived in that scene was that Olli was sending out mixed signals. His eyes, his facial expression, the proximity of their faces, all seemed to be inviting Christian to kiss him. I completely understand Chrsitian reading it this way and while Olli may have read it as Christian having an agenda, Christian saw it as an extention of the comfort and support he was already giving him.
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AndreB
Junior Member
Posts: 221
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Post by AndreB on Jul 28, 2011 9:43:02 GMT -5
Yes. The ones from the official website, they were also in the official press kit. Andi: Als er sich bei einem Junggesellenabschied von Jessica verführen lässt... = when he lets himself be seduced by Jessica during a stag party... Christian: Doch nach einem Ausrutscher mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica ... = After his lapse with the maid Jessica ... Helena: Selbst nachdem Andi sie betrogen hat, ... = Even after Andi cheated on her ... Olli: Doch Christian betrügt ihn mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica = But Christian cheats on him with Jessica the maid ______________ People will believe what they want, but it's intereting that for Olli/Helena they say cheated. Plain and simple. That's because in their eyes that is what has happened. For Andi it says seduced. Jessica putting the ice down Andi's shirts and taking the picture, is part of him being seduced. With Christian it says a lapse. He was there getting drunk and let himself get into a terrible situation. IMO, if Andi/Christian had both cheated, beyound a shadow of a doubt, they would have said cheated in the bios. Not used words that could mean any of a number of things. Well, if you read spoilers in German then you see that writers LOVE to use metaphoric speech, so basically it's all the same. "Having a lapse with somebody" and "being seduced" is still the same as cheating, especially in this context, where Christian and Andi got serious relationship problems because of that and like Lola said, there is no sign of doubt in this description. Of course, writers could retcon it sometimes in the future, but at the moment there is no sign of it. I also think that it's not so far-fetched to believe that those scenes with Christian, Jessica and Andi were not more graphic because of Thore's RL relationship. Many fans were already very disappointed that writers did a story like that with Thore and JJK at all and they were disgusted by those party scenes in NL. Showing a threesome would be probably also something out of reach for VL in their 18.00 timeslot... If we look a little bit further in this story then we see one more reason why some stuff is not shown - unequal treatment of gay and hetero stories: Christian and Theresa got much more erotic stuff than Olli and Raphael. Some people don't understand it and also start to spin conspiracy theories a la: maybe Raphael slept with Emilio or Olli with Emilio?
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LadyArmand
Full Member
"Fortune favors the bold..." Virgil
Posts: 1,602
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Post by LadyArmand on Jul 28, 2011 9:45:01 GMT -5
Yes. The ones from the official website, they were also in the official press kit. Andi: Als er sich bei einem Junggesellenabschied von Jessica verführen lässt... = when he lets himself be seduced by Jessica during a stag party... Christian: Doch nach einem Ausrutscher mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica ... = After his lapse with the maid Jessica ... Helena: Selbst nachdem Andi sie betrogen hat, ... = Even after Andi cheated on her ... Olli: Doch Christian betrügt ihn mit dem Hausmädchen Jessica = But Christian cheats on him with Jessica the maid ______________ People will believe what they want, but it's intereting that for Olli/Helena they say cheated. Plain and simple. That's because in their eyes that is what has happened. For Andi it says seduced. Jessica putting the ice down Andi's shirts and taking the picture, is part of him being seduced. With Christian it says a lapse. He was there getting drunk and let himself get into a terrible situation. IMO, if Andi/Christian had both cheated, beyound a shadow of a doubt, they would have said cheated in the bios. Not used words that could mean any of a number of things. The wording to me about what happened as it pretains to Christian and Andi is a matter of semantics and is meant to in some way justify what happened. In that both words "lapse" and "seduced" are meant to take a certain level of personal responsibility away from both Christian and Andi. If it simply says cheated for both men, the it is solely their fault. By using lapse and seduced they place greater onus on Jessica.
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Post by mandalai on Jul 28, 2011 9:52:31 GMT -5
Could someone please give me his/her opinion about the following sentence Christian says in 110 MM video after olli tells him he is enjoying his straight side again after a guy? I believe the meaning is quite clear but I really need to listen to someone's opinion. The sentence is: You can say that to me a thousand times , it still won't make it true. Thanks in advance and sorry if you have already discussed about that. I watched last episodes all together after my holidays so I couldn't follow the discussion in real time.
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LadyArmand
Full Member
"Fortune favors the bold..." Virgil
Posts: 1,602
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Post by LadyArmand on Jul 28, 2011 10:02:38 GMT -5
On the spot of the accident Olli needed someone to just be there for him without an agenda, and before the botched kiss, we could clearly see (or at least I could) Olli moving closer to Christian both physically and emotionally. Only to have the comfort he was seeking in the arms of someone familiar someone he felt safe with ripped from him. And I say safe because if he didn’t feel safe he would never have let Christian hold him. Nor would he have allowed Christian to get as close to him emotionally. And to feel safe there has to be trust, so on a level he may not have known still existed he still trusts Christian to be there for him when he really needs him. Or at least he did. I think this interpretation of what was happening at the accident scene is a really sound reading of what Olli wanted and needed at that moment, based on his reactions to Crhistian.I know some people have blamed Christian for trying to kiss Olli at that moment. Your reaction (and please correct me if I'm misreading) seems more critical of Chrsitian's reaction to Olli's rejection of the kiss (i.e. running to Theresa). I believe that Chrsitian's mistake was not in kissing Olli, but in misunderstanding Olli's reaction to it, and then, of course, starting up with Theresa. What I perceived in that scene was that Olli was sending out mixed signals. His eyes, his facial expression, the proximity of their faces, all seemed to be inviting Christian to kiss him. I completely understand Chrsitian reading it this way and while Olli may have read it as Christian having an agenda, Christian saw it as an extention of the comfort and support he was already giving him. I'm not saying that Christian had an agenda, I think he really just wanted to help Olli. I'm saying in that moment when Olli felt close to Christan, when he let down a little those walls he'd been building against letting Christian back in, Olli felt there was an agenda. I think Olli was feeling that finally in all of this darkness fulled with pain, regret and self recrimination that he was going to be okay. And he allowed himself to be physically and emotionally open to Christian in away I don't feel he thought he was still capable of. And then as you said Christian misreading Olli's intent blew the whole thing out of the water and those walls rose back up and reinforced themselves. That element of the scene is an ongoing theme in this SL which has to do with their miscommunication. One is doing one thing and the other sees what they are doing differently than it is actually intended. Christian can't see that everything Olli has done since he found out about the cheat is in a desperate effort to protect himself from the pain of it all. And Olli can't see that everything that Christian has done since that night is his desperate effort to run from the fact that he's f#$ked up royally. And he doesn't have the first clue as to how to fix it so he keeps making it worse.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 28, 2011 10:06:33 GMT -5
People will believe what they want, but it's intereting that for Olli/Helena they say cheated. Plain and simple. That's because in their eyes that is what has happened. For Andi it says seduced. Jessica putting the ice down Andi's shirts and taking the picture, is part of him being seduced. With Christian it says a lapse. He was there getting drunk and let himself get into a terrible situation. IMO, if Andi/Christian had both cheated, beyound a shadow of a doubt, they would have said cheated in the bios. Not used words that could mean any of a number of things. The wording to me about what happened as it pretains to Christian and Andi is a matter of semantics and is meant to in some way justify what happened. In that both words "lapse" and "seduced" are meant to take a certain level of personal responsibility away from both Christian and Andi. If it simply says cheated for both men, the it is solely their fault. By using lapse and seduced they place greater onus on Jessica. Kinda like Tanja or Clarissa or Ansgar's bio's don't say that they are cold hearted psychopaths Even with Jessica they tried hard to find something nice to say about her. Personally I find the German lapse rather obvious here (or course I also think even obvious means crap on VL). If they wanted it to be mysterious I think they would have used something more along the lines of blackout. But to each their own
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joanna
Senior Member
Former Verbotene Liebe Champion.
Posts: 8,547
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Post by joanna on Jul 28, 2011 10:22:02 GMT -5
Can this 'lapse' discussion maybe be taken off to 'general discussion' or something, as it's gone quite off topic in here now?
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Post by angelarose on Jul 28, 2011 10:24:55 GMT -5
The discussion about whether or not Christian and Andi slept with Jessica really started just as a discussion about whether or not the show has made it undeniably fact in comparison to them making the character's labelling what they did as "cheating" undeniably fact. So, it wasn't really, at least from my point of view, a discussion about whether or not the revelation that nothing happened would be impactful or important to the story at this point. I never expressed an opinion one way or the other, I was just arguing that the possibility is there for it not to have happened. And regardless of what the bios say what has been shown on screen has left things open-ended to some degree. It may not matter at this point, although if the writers choose to go that route I would imagine it would be for a reason and that it would impact the story somehow.
Also, it was mentioned that maybe nothing was actually shown because of the real life relationship of Thore and Jana. That may be true, but they could've gotten around that by simply having the characters remember what happened. I don't see what purpose having them still be unsure of what happened, combined with not showing anything, serves if not to leave things ambiguous or open-ended to some extent. But I could be wrong and it means nothing.
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Post by angelarose on Jul 28, 2011 10:26:54 GMT -5
Sorry Joanna, just saw your post after I posted.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 28, 2011 10:30:54 GMT -5
Jessica's sure of it though, but I can see why some folks would grab onto the posibility of it not being true and not letting go, because of that character's previous lies. Yet, Andi and Christian drunkenly cose to hang out with her that night, all alone inside an empty NL, while knowing who Jessica is and what she's capable of doing.
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