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Post by davedoty on Jul 29, 2009 5:47:42 GMT -5
for some reason i cant let this go...im sorry if it makes people mad... There's certainly nothing wrong with being sad that a favorite character dies. It's understandable, and even the point of sad plot developments. My complaints are about the people posting angry rants literally saying things like "F* you, RTD" (only with the F* not "bleeped", and accusing him of writing this just to hurt the fans because he hates them, and other ridiculous personal attacks. Some of them have now moved on to accusing RTD of homophobia. RTD, the out producer behind not just Captain Jack, but Queer as Folk. The man who has probably done more to increase gay visibility on television than anyone else in history. Not only are comments like that an unwarranted personal attack, but they trivialize real homophobia.
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 29, 2009 6:00:36 GMT -5
I "blame" Internet for that, it enables grouping of similarly disturbed individuals. As individuals they would have never dreamt of insulting anybody.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 29, 2009 16:14:40 GMT -5
for some reason i cant let this go...im sorry if it makes people mad... There's certainly nothing wrong with being sad that a favorite character dies. It's understandable, and even the point of sad plot developments. My complaints are about the people posting angry rants literally saying things like "F* you, RTD" (only with the F* not "bleeped", and accusing him of writing this just to hurt the fans because he hates them, and other ridiculous personal attacks. Some of them have now moved on to accusing RTD of homophobia. RTD, the out producer behind not just Captain Jack, but Queer as Folk. The man who has probably done more to increase gay visibility on television than anyone else in history. Not only are comments like that an unwarranted personal attack, but they trivialize real homophobia. You mean like what is summed up here: www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1216338.html
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 29, 2009 16:44:01 GMT -5
I "blame" Internet for that, it enables grouping of similarly disturbed individuals. As individuals they would have never dreamt of insulting anybody. People have insulted writers and producers for many years. Or those in charge, if they didn't know who the names were. Going back to the days of early TV soaps when people would send in cards and letters and make angry phone calls if a character was killed off. Or Maude, where they got thousands of angry letters, including some death threats and photos of aborted fetuses. The Internet has made it worse, but RTD's comments, which dismiss the fan disappointment as something minor, tells fans to stop watching, and makes convenient statements like you can't bring someone back (when he has resurrected no less than three main characters on this show alone), did not help matters. I thought it was a poorly written death, one that made the characters look foolish and one which in the end had no real impact. That RTD has to keep telling people what the impact was supposed to be doesn't say much for his writing. The last two episodes were mediocre to poor, in my opinion, and his defensive reaction suggests he doesn't even quite know just what was going on in the final product or how people would respond. I think this article sums up the poor writing of his death. www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/7/buffy-versus-torchwood
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2009 17:05:53 GMT -5
I really miss Tara now (okay I've been missing her for 7 years) I loved them as a couple but her death at least had a point to push Willow over the edge Ianto's death not so much and since Jack left forever at the end of the season what the hell is season 4 going to entail?
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Post by davedoty on Jul 29, 2009 21:13:16 GMT -5
tells fans to stop watching, I'm sorry, but this is just dishonest. What he actually said was "Absolutely. There’s a risk that some people won’t come back to watch now that Ianto’s gone. I thank them for watching the show and I recommend they go watch Supernatural, because those boys are beautiful. And don’t tell me they’re brothers. [Laughs] Not in my mind. " He's not "telling people to stop watching," he's acknowledging that some people MAY stop watching. And thanking them for the time they did watch, and accepting that they have the right to stop watching. The flip, dismissive tone people attribute to the comment JUST ISN'T THERE. People are reading it into it, because they are projecting their personal animosity onto RTD.
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 29, 2009 23:26:53 GMT -5
For me it made sense as it was written, they were standing there thinking they are invincible, although only one of them was (kind of) and just like that, in a moment Ianto was gone.
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Ailyne
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Post by Ailyne on Jul 30, 2009 0:07:59 GMT -5
For me it made sense as it was written, they were standing there thinking they are invincible, although only one of them was (kind of) and just like that, in a moment Ianto was gone. yeah...i guess i just got so used to seeing Ianto there...always there...he seemed almost as immortal as Jack...and when when i was watching COE4 and i realized what exactly was about to happen i was like... WTF!!! in that order...lol i was so sad... my mom says im crazy cause i get too attached to tv characters..lol..i am.. but why Ianto...why..him...i mean... oh well i guess...there's nothing i can really do but be sad... ill comfort myself with Jack's beautifulness and funniness but I <3 Ianto 4EVER!
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 30, 2009 10:12:02 GMT -5
tells fans to stop watching, I'm sorry, but this is just dishonest. What he actually said was "Absolutely. There’s a risk that some people won’t come back to watch now that Ianto’s gone. I thank them for watching the show and I recommend they go watch Supernatural, because those boys are beautiful. And don’t tell me they’re brothers. [Laughs] Not in my mind. " He's not "telling people to stop watching," he's acknowledging that some people MAY stop watching. And thanking them for the time they did watch, and accepting that they have the right to stop watching. The flip, dismissive tone people attribute to the comment JUST ISN'T THERE. People are reading it into it, because they are projecting their personal animosity onto RTD. I think it's semantics. Whatever his exact wording was, he chose to criticize some of the fans and tell them to find another show. He didn't ask them to keep watching, he didn't try to understand what they were feeling. He chose to act like they were some small part of fandom (and implied anyone who was upset about the stupidity of the death was some shipper) and they could leave. He may have tried to be cute, but his tone didn't come across to me as someone who was acknowledging and thanking. I thought he came across as very defensive. The whole thing about someone has to stay dead to keep true to the story also flies in the face of three or four previous stories on Torchwood. That's another reason his comments seemed odd to me. That and the decision to try to make it sound like Jack/Ianto fans hate Gwen/Rhys. As if the writing on the show even made Gwen/Rhys into a couple who were going to be that important. In the first season she seemed to prefer Owen and Jack. In the second season, she still had feelings for Jack. I have always liked Gwen and Rhys together, and I liked Ianto, but I don't know if the show feels the same way.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 30, 2009 10:14:21 GMT -5
For me it made sense as it was written, they were standing there thinking they are invincible, although only one of them was (kind of) and just like that, in a moment Ianto was gone. I don't see any reason why they would think they are invincible. Two members of their team had died not all that long ago, and Ianto is usually someone who is very cautious. I also didn't think the scene implied they thought they were invincible. They just seemed stupid. Even afterwards, I never heard anyone on the show say the characters thought they were invincible. If we have to guess to figure out the meaning, then I think it was a poorly written death. I think it was a death scene designed solely to shock people, and not much else. Even that part didn't work too well, if you ask me, since he was quickly forgotten about. I guess we can agree to disagree.
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 30, 2009 12:32:25 GMT -5
I think RTD is now a bit allergic to hardcore fanboys that are never happy with what he does and they would always did things differently. With DW it got as far as that those fanboys would love even a shit story as far as it's not RTD's, his stories are apparently too soap, too character driven, not 100% logical, basically shit. That influences one a bit. At the end he's right, it's his show, it's his decisions, take it or leave it, he writes what he thinks is a good story, he's not in it to on purpose piss off and lose his fans. If his idea of a good story does not match yours, maybe it's really time to move on. If he loses a big part of the audience he may reconsider his choices, but till then it's still his call. There's one problem with Internet, loudest groups are not always the biggest, often mostly only viewers on the extreme parts of opinion spectrum care enough to voice their opinions.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 30, 2009 13:08:23 GMT -5
If RTD was that allergic to them he would have spoken out when they trashed his work with Doctor Who. The complaints about Doctor Who were much more long-running and fervent than anything from Jack/Ianto fans. If he was going to speak out against loud angry fan groups who are a minority, then he should have spoken out more against the people who were so horrible about Catherine Tate and who kept saying she would get DW canceled. I don't remember him having half the anger towards them he seemed to have towards the people who were upset about Ianto's death. It's also hypocritical, because he killed Ianto for no other reason than to get a reaction, yet he condemns those who have a reaction.
The other area where I see hypocrisy is that he is a huge fanboy of characters like Rose and Gwen and writes as such, to the point where both characters had a whole parade of men devoted to nothing more than adoring them (Gwen at one time had four men on the show who were in love with her/fascinated by her). It's not as if he is a writer whose style has ever been allergic to the same fan obsession that caused some of the backlash against Ianto's death. It's just that he never had any serious interest in Ianto (Ianto in his eyes was just a minor character, elevated to a slightly larger role because fans liked him), so he had no problem killing him off. He certainly never dreamed of killing off Rose, even when the multiple times that her life was miraculously saved at the last moment became absurd. He also had no problem resurrecting four different characters on Torchwood.
I would just like some consistency and I would like him to not dismiss people who thought this death was pointless as some type of crazies who need to go find another show. And I don't see that that has happened. Instead, he basically dismissed fans who don't see the show as yet another edition of Jack moping and killing various characters for shock value.
And as annoyed as I know I sound, I am someone who truly enjoyed RTD's work on Doctor Who, who defended him from criticisms, who was not a believer in the idea that Steven Moffat was going to save the show or make it great. It's just that the poor reasoning/execution of this death and RTD's comments to fans have really thrown me. I guess I expected so much more from him. Most of all I am disappointed that a character I enjoyed and admired for 3 years turns out to be nothing more than a redshirt to make Jack sad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 15:42:00 GMT -5
Resurrected Characters: - Jack (but he's immortal) - Suzie - Owen - ?
Who am I missing?
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woowoo1
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And breathe...
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Post by woowoo1 on Jul 30, 2009 16:15:22 GMT -5
Resurrected Characters: - Jack (but he's immortal) - Suzie - Owen - ? Who am I missing? Rhys died twice, I believe.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 30, 2009 16:17:39 GMT -5
Well, from what I've been witnessing from the fallout of TW:CoE from that segment of the fandom, some of them DO hate her, with a passion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 16:38:46 GMT -5
Okay so I missed Rhys but can Jack really be included on that list?
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Ailyne
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Post by Ailyne on Jul 30, 2009 17:01:33 GMT -5
If RTD was that allergic to them he would have spoken out when they trashed his work with Doctor Who. The complaints about Doctor Who were much more long-running and fervent than anything from Jack/Ianto fans. If he was going to speak out against loud angry fan groups who are a minority, then he should have spoken out more against the people who were so horrible about Catherine Tate and who kept saying she would get DW canceled. I don't remember him having half the anger towards them he seemed to have towards the people who were upset about Ianto's death. It's also hypocritical, because he killed Ianto for no other reason than to get a reaction, yet he condemns those who have a reaction. The other area where I see hypocrisy is that he is a huge fanboy of characters like Rose and Gwen and writes as such, to the point where both characters had a whole parade of men devoted to nothing more than adoring them (Gwen at one time had four men on the show who were in love with her/fascinated by her). It's not as if he is a writer whose style has ever been allergic to the same fan obsession that caused some of the backlash against Ianto's death. It's just that he never had any serious interest in Ianto (Ianto in his eyes was just a minor character, elevated to a slightly larger role because fans liked him), so he had no problem killing him off. He certainly never dreamed of killing off Rose, even when the multiple times that her life was miraculously saved at the last moment became absurd. He also had no problem resurrecting four different characters on Torchwood. I would just like some consistency and I would like him to not dismiss people who thought this death was pointless as some type of crazies who need to go find another show. And I don't see that that has happened. Instead, he basically dismissed fans who don't see the show as yet another edition of Jack moping and killing various characters for shock value. And as annoyed as I know I sound, I am someone who truly enjoyed RTD's work on Doctor Who, who defended him from criticisms, who was not a believer in the idea that Steven Moffat was going to save the show or make it great. It's just that the poor reasoning/execution of this death and RTD's comments to fans have really thrown me. I guess I expected so much more from him. Most of all I am disappointed that a character I enjoyed and admired for 3 years turns out to be nothing more than a redshirt to make Jack sad. I agree...
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 30, 2009 17:11:23 GMT -5
Well, from what I've been witnessing from the fallout of TW:CoE from that segment of the fandom, some of them DO hate her, with a passion. A number of fans have hated Gwen all along, because the writing for her was terrible for long periods of time. She was supposed to be the heart of the show, but she was very selfish in the first season, and very cold. She cheated on her boyfriend, she confessed to him and then drugged him into forgetting (and this was only like an episode after she saw people reduced to deranged murderers because of retcon pills). She flirted with Jack and kissed him, even on her wedding day. She does what she wants, regardless of the consequences, even when she's supposed to be on a team. In spite of all this, they had an entire episode devoted to how wonderful she was and how an evil crazy woman resented her (They Keep Killing Suzie). They had an episode which had her making rousing speeches as several men stare at her adoringly. Until recently they have given viewers few reasons to like Gwen. The only reason I believe she could have any fans is Eve Myles, who is one of the best actresses I have ever seen anywhere and who has great chemistry with everyone, except maybe John Barrowman. I didn't see any of this spill into Gwen/Rhys hate. I'm sure that some fans may have resented the two of them having more romance than Jack and Ianto but many fans I knew liked Gwen and Rhys as a couple. When I used to read Torchwood fics I would see stories that had various couples together, Jack/Ianto, Gwen/Rhys, Tosh/Owen. It's very strange to me that RTD saw this as either/or, or that he assumed Jack/Ianto had anywhere near as much attention devoted to their relationship as Gwen/Rhys. They didn't. That's the reason they had to shove all this forced development of their relationship into the miniseries. If anything I think fans had a more positive opinion of Gwen/Rhys than the showrunners do. They always seem to want people to put the Jack/Gwen relationship first, down to those scenes of her weeping and begging Jack not to leave her as Rhys stands blurred in the background.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 30, 2009 17:12:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry for all these paragraphs! Aah. I must sound awful. I just feel so disappointed and wanted to vent. I'll stop now.
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softfurbear
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Post by softfurbear on Jul 31, 2009 3:50:22 GMT -5
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 31, 2009 8:22:49 GMT -5
Well, People are still asking for interviews and Mr. Davies' giving them. Are some people expecting him to change his mind or give a different answer to the same questions being asked to him? I really want to know.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 31, 2009 10:45:23 GMT -5
Well, People are still asking for interviews and Mr. Davies' giving them. Are some people expecting him to change his mind or give a different answer to the same questions being asked to him? I really want to know. I was wondering the same thing. People keep asking him about the show, so he keeps responding. Either it's folks wanting to air grievances hoping he'll change his mind or asking the same questions yet seeming to think he'll give a different answer but he's been pretty consistent - massive ego aside - about things. I think if folks stop asking him or making comments to him, he might stop talking about it. Obviously mileage varies.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Jul 31, 2009 11:26:54 GMT -5
I'm genuinely puzzled by the apparent furore about this show. I find it kinda sad that there is all this arguing over the characterisation of the characters whilst the other half of the equation is about monsters who teleport out of the sky and demand earth's children because they're addicted to them RTD wrote it the way he wanted to - the BBC commisioned it, produced it and aired it - and we all watched it - ( even those who have vented the most watched it till the end!!! ). Like many others, I was surprised at Ianto's death - but in all honesty - was there really any more mileage in them As for all the main characters being killed off - isn't that just to highlight the juxtaposition of Jack's immortality. I don't think this show was ever written with the preposition of becoming a long-term event - it's only it's viewing popularity that has given it the legs it has. It seems to me now, that there will likely not be another series - if there is, in all likelihood it will take the form of something entirely different - I see no real problems with that. I kinda like the fact that RTD has stuck to his guns and not apologised or bowed to fan-ranting. He has produced some memorable television and that is largely due to the fact that he does what he wants. I thoroughly enjoyed CoE for what it was. btw - does everyone know that Captain Jack is The Face of Bo in DWlol - I'm guessing y'all do but I felt quite proud of myself when I worked that one out
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 13:55:14 GMT -5
I knew that he was the face of Boe He mentioned once in an episode that he was called that on his home planet and the face of Boe has been alive for like forever. He does look kinda cute as a giant head with no body
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 31, 2009 14:08:00 GMT -5
Sheepie - That was my first thought, after watching the entire CoE during a viewing party over 2 weeks ago. FoB mentions to Nine, about all the things that he'd experienced in his life. I really do hope that there's a season 4 of Torchwood, because I'm interested in what they'll do next. I'm genuinely puzzled by the apparent furor about this show. I kinda like the fact that RTD has stuck to his guns and not apologised or bowed to fan-ranting. He has produced some memorable television and that is largely due to the fact that he does what he wants. I thoroughly enjoyed CoE for what it was. btw - does everyone know that Captain Jack is The Face of Bo in DWlol - I'm guessing y'all do but I felt quite proud of myself when I worked that one out
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