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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 11:58:17 GMT -5
411 starts airing in 10 minutes or so. Thanks. Been a long time since I've been this eager but that cliffhanger was so surreal. So it'a a 9 hour time difference between Germany and the Western USA? Ok! I will have to remember that.
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Post by GayTime on Apr 23, 2008 12:09:36 GMT -5
i really don't have a lot to add to the current discussion, cause as it stand, i'm feeling completely indifferent to AWZ. at least they seem to have realized around january/early february how bad DeVa is going to derail and they are trying to turn that around. not working.
i guess i'll have to wait for today's episode...
on the plus side: the scenes between deniz and roman have 100% more chemistry than anything we've seen between deniz and vanessa, however i would like to see all the characters move on. roman needs to be with someone more mature, deniz needs to explore what he's really about for a little longer.
the whole cultural background thing is an interesting thought, but i really don't wanna give the writers too much credit. they're in the business of writing 'good' drama, so i'm not sure they'll give all that a whole lot of consideration...
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Post by feline on Apr 23, 2008 12:14:34 GMT -5
I just hope that this attempted kiss from Deniz will continue into today's episode and clear up where the s/l is actually heading??? arghhh
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Post by amber80 on Apr 23, 2008 12:17:35 GMT -5
on the plus side: the scenes between deniz and roman have 100% more chemistry than anything we've seen between deniz and vanessa, however i would like to see all the characters move on. roman needs to be with someone more mature, deniz needs to explore what he's really about for a little longer. Couldn't agree more...
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 12:29:11 GMT -5
Roman kissed back. Deniz pushed him away eventually. Tried to blame it all on Roman. Roman of course isn't buying it. Deniz insists he loves Vanessa. Roman leaves. There is deep breathing and hitting the lockers.
Vanessa and Ben say they missed each other. Vanessa then says that Deniz has been acting like an ass since he started modelling, but she loves him anyway and she knows she overreacted.
Then Vanessa has some HILARIOUS interaction with Juli about Juli watching Titanic. Juli wants to dress up for Oliver to fall in love with her. Vanessa tells her that she doesn't have to change herself for Oliver and that she is awesome the way she is [FORESHADOWING]
Roman talks to Anette and tells them about the kiss. He says that it must mean more. Anette thinks he should let go of Deniz and that he shouldn't interpret too much into it, that Deniz is just a teenager who was having a bad day, etc. [no, I wouldn't really buy that interpretation either] Roman seems more curious than desperate.
Ben goes to see Deniz at No.7. He tells Deniz that there is nothing between Vanessa and Ben anymore and that Vanessa only loves Deniz and only talks about Deniz [me: really?]. Says he doesn't want her see get hurt. Deniz promises him that that won't happen. They apologize for hitting each other and shake hands.
Roman has a scene with Jenny training on the ice.
Vanessa comes to see Deniz at the bar. Cutesy music starts playing. They both say "I'm sorry" at the same time. She says she shouldn't have yelled at him. He says he shouldn't have been so jealous. Says he knows that "you and Ben are just friend. I mean siblings." [me: LOL]. She says she forgives him for flirting with "poor man's Jessica Simpson" [me: wait, did she just insult Roman? Ahhhhhhhhh she meant the model. LOL] He is all shocked she noticed. She says, she's a woman she notices everything[me: ya think?]. He says the model hit on him and adds in a total little boy voice "It was soooo gross" [well, that's my interepretation; but he did say it was gross (ecklig)]. Says he only showed the model the way down because the model couldn't find the way because the model is so stupid.
During that Vanessa wears the most hilarious sarcastic face [probably thinking that it's not the female model who is "dumb as bread" in this scenario].
Anyway, Vanessa has to leave, they hug. She goes to the door, comes back, whispers in his ear that she loves him, he says it back, cue kiss.
(wait, I thought the storyline was that the modelling was *honestly* going to his head and that Deniz was *honestly* enjoying all the partying. So if he lying about this to Vanessa when he insists that he dislikes all the stupid, shallow model types? I'm confused again, because he sure spends a lot of time playing sensitive for Vanessa or Ben here)
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Gabi
Junior Member
Posts: 206
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Post by Gabi on Apr 23, 2008 12:40:04 GMT -5
Oh, of course Deniz dislikes those stupid models. And none of us here ever watches soaps
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 12:41:50 GMT -5
So I actually went ahead and tried to look up the song that was playing while Deniz and Vanessa were talking: www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/kttunstall/othersideoftheworld.htmlI don't want to interpret to much into it, but just saying... "But the time has come To move along The fire fades away Can you help me Can you let me go And can you still love me When you can't see me anymore The fire fades away" He sure is good at puppyface though. Still, it annoys me to have him lie about that. Can't he just say he is sorry, but it's natural and just because he flirts doesn't mean that he'll cheat? He is way overdoing the charade. But I guess that is the point.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 12:42:07 GMT -5
Wow, Lola... that didn't really explain much about Deniz's motivations AT ALL. Gah, TIIC are doing it again. So Roman kisses back, which I expected and Deniz eventually ends the kiss then blames the fact that he kissed Roman on Roman - such a patented Deniz move, BTW. Roman tells Annette that it must mean something that Deniz kissed him which Annette shoots down with a lame reason. And then Deniz and Vanessa make up retardly to cheesy music with insincere overtures of regret and love for their recent actions. That about right? Cause if so, TIIC are seriously fucking things up trying to play up this triangle when it is no longer working. Were there at least sparks with the DeRo kiss?
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 12:47:08 GMT -5
Deniz looked like a tool though for everyone plain to see who is watching the show. Saying things like "Stop throwing yourself at me/You won't be successful in breaking up me and Vanessa" ect when he was the one who kissed Roman. Maybe there is hope for a future "Deniz has brain damage" storyline It looked cute. Better than last episode. I liked it. How long till you get off work?
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 12:52:41 GMT -5
Deniz looked like a tool though for everyone plain to see who is watching the show. Saying things like "Stop throwing yourself at me/You won't be successful in breaking up me and Vanessa" ect when he was the one who kissed Roman. Maybe there is hope for a future "Deniz has brain damage" storyline It looked cute. Better than last episode. I liked it. How long till you get off work? I won't be home for about 5 hours, so ... are there screencaps? Honestly, Deniz didn't need to say those things to Roman to look like a tool but he's got to stop with mixed signals. What was Roman's response to the patented Deniz move of blame the other person? See, this is another reason why I want a guy to chase after Roman. I want to see how Deniz handles it besides my just wanting to see Roman with a man who appreciates him & doesn't have identity/sexuality issues like Deniz.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 13:00:17 GMT -5
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 13:03:49 GMT -5
Vielen dank! Love it. He's totally into it and then he remembers the awful fate that awaits him in the form of his relationship with Vanessa.
WHY IS DENIZ SUCH A TOOL? Writers, we deserve an answer to this question, damnit!
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 13:07:03 GMT -5
But don't you see? He is a TEENAGER. He just wants to screw around and party with models AND pulll the wool over his friend's eyes by playing cutesy teddy bear with her AND keep Roman from moving on all at the same time. How dare you not have sympathy for the poor, poor, poor guy.
Somebody needs to beat him over the head. Hard.
I don't know if it's gonna be a trend, but Roman seemed much calmer and thoughtful today. Almost like he went from revenge Rrrrrrrawrrrrrraawrrrrraw to "Okayyyyy, something weird is going on here....". Which would be nice, if he is actually considering the situation rather than just wanting to dash forward blindly.
I still don't have any sympathy for Deniz being with Vanessa. He pursued her. Nobody forced him to be with her. He could have broken up with her easily. He is the one who is putting himself in this situation. It's not like this is one of those "OMG, she is suffering from a deadly illness and I have to stay with her or she'll DIE!!!" ala Jana from VL. He's just a dumb tool.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 13:15:42 GMT -5
But don't you see? He is a TEENAGER. He just wants to screw around and party with models AND pool the wool over his friend's eyes by playing cutesy teddy bear with her AND keep Roman from moving on all at the same time. How dare you not have sympathy for the poor, poor, poor guy. Somebody needs to beat him over the head. Hard. I don't know if it's gonna be a trend, but Roman seemed much calmer and thoughtful today. Almost like he went from revenge Rrrrrrrawrrrrrraawrrrrraw to "Okayyyyy, something weird is going on here....". Which would be nice, if he is actually considering the situation rather than just waring to dash forward blindly. I would say that it should be Marian smacking Deniz upside the head, but he's not doing to well either at the moment. Talk about the apple not falling far from the tree... I like the change in Roman. Calm, sensible, occassionally bitchy Roman is awesome. I still hope that when if DeVa breaks up soon and Deniz comes sniffing around him that Roman says no. For now, Deniz is simply too much of a hot mess and the last thing Roman needs is to be thrown back into Deniz's confused identity hell. I think the plus from the change in Roman comes from him getting Deniz more and seeing through his actions and words. So wait, was it not explained why Vanessa went with Ben and Roman stayed behind with Deniz?
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Post by amber80 on Apr 23, 2008 13:20:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the recap and the screencaps Lola! A calm reaction from Roman sounds good... Much better than getting all hysteric!
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 13:21:52 GMT -5
Not really. Vanessa did say to Ben that Deniz kinda deserved being beat up because he has been such an ass ever since he started modelling. And then she admitted to both Ben and Deniz that she overreacted. I'm guessing we are supposed to think that she was still miffed about the model-flirting?
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 13:28:28 GMT -5
Dialog between Deniz and Roman: Deniz: Stop it! Roman: For a second it looked like that was exactly what you wanted. Deniz: You should leave me alone. Roman: Now you listen to me. You kissed me, not me you. So stop badgering me. Deniz: Then finally stop throwing yourself at me/running after me. Get it finally, there's nothing going on between us. Roman: Oh yeah, I just really noticed that again, that nothing is going on between us. Deniz: You can try to tell yourself what you want, I'm with Vanessa, I love her and there is definitely nothing you can do about that. Roman: Well, everything's in perfect order then. You don't have to worry about anything (pets Deniz' face and leaves).
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 13:39:49 GMT -5
Not really. Vanessa did say to Ben that Deniz kinda deserved being beat up because he has been such an ass ever since he started modelling. And then she admitted to both Ben and Deniz that she overreacted. I'm guessing we are supposed to think that she was still miffed about the model-flirting? But the poor man's Jessica Simpson - and honestly I was thinking the poor man's Ashlee Simpson - was no threat to her thought I understand why she was jealous, except that Deniz even though he was flirting with his words seemed to not be responding to her at all otherwise. And Deniz was being an ass long before the modeling gig started. Dialog between Deniz and Roman: Deniz: Stop it! Roman: For a second it looked like that was exactly what you wanted. Deniz: You should leave me alone. Roman: Now you listen to me. You kissed me, not me you. So stop badgering me. Deniz: Then finally stop throwing yourself at me/running after me. Get it finally, there's nothing going on between us. Roman: Oh yeah, I just really noticed that again, that nothing is going on between us. Deniz: You can try to tell yourself what you want, I'm with Vanessa, I love her and there is definitely nothing you can do about that. Roman: Well, everything's in perfect order then. You don't have to worry about anything (pets Deniz' face and leaves). Oh Deniz. HOT MESS!! Wow, talk about denial, confusion and stupidity all rolled into one scene. Loved Roman's reaction to Deniz's comments. In his place I wouldn't have believe Deniz either.
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Post by amber80 on Apr 23, 2008 14:49:34 GMT -5
Roman: Well, everything's in perfect order then. You don't have to worry about anything (pets Deniz' face and leaves). Lol! Thát's a fantastic reaction... ;D
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 16:09:15 GMT -5
Roman: Well, everything's in perfect order then. You don't have to worry about anything (pets Deniz' face and leaves). Lol! Thát's a fantastic reaction... ;D Totally! It's to the point where I am like "Oh Deniz, you little whiny bitch!". Tomorrow should prove interesting.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 24, 2008 0:49:57 GMT -5
I finally saw 411. Way to not really give us much in the way of Deniz's motivation, writers. Most awkward make-up scene ever, especially with the hug and the really hollow "Ich liebe dich aus" from Deniz. He loves her but maybe, just maybe, he's finally realizing his relationship with her is not as it should be. That look on his face at the end was pretty telling. Deniz is such a shameless bitch. The way he went after Roman when he was the one who initiated the kiss. I thought Roman's response of the pat on the cheek was made of win.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 24, 2008 0:55:26 GMT -5
To me that was yet antoher example of something where they could have done more. They could have shown us Deniz flashing back to the kiss or to any Roman scene. They could have had the words echoing in his head. And they could have had Igor looking much more tortured (I have SEEN him do tortured; he can do much more).
Instead they left it was vaguely.... whatever.
Which is annoying.
I am used to the person in the middle of a triangle being potrayed in a way that we are not supposed to know who they'll pick to make things more exciting. But usually those are triangles where both options are portrayed as appealing instead of like here where both couples come off as fairly unappealing because of the way Deniz acts.
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Post by babylondancer on Apr 24, 2008 4:59:10 GMT -5
Sorry, but I think it's very convincing. I actually still believe in Deniz being the confused kid who doesn't want to be gay and first of all tries to convince himself that he likes girls. He's so sure that he isn't gay that he can't even bring himself to doubt it, but then he kisses Roman passionately and backs off as soon as Roman kisses him back. His: 'I'm not gay' was not meant for Roman, but basically for himself. He's way too young or too stupid to see what's going on inside of him. And then there's Vanessa taking him back, and he's so sure that this is the right thing that he can't even see that he has no passion for her at all. I mean, come on, just look at the kiss they shared, I share these kind of kisses with my straight bro, and I am gay. lol And I'm quite sure that Roman finally got it too. Bitchy Roman was just because he's so deep in love with Deniz and couldn't stand him being with Vanessa, but now that Roman understood Deniz' feelings he's all calm and understanding again. Because that's how he was from the beginning of their relationship, always giving Deniz all the time he needed. Now that's he's sure about him again, he can go back to patient Roman, waiting until Deniz is ready to deal with himself. Sorry, but I've seen this behaviour so often in real life, grown up men who don't allow themselves to even think that they might be gay even though they feel much more attracted to men then to women. And men are egoistic asholes who never think about what their behaviour might mean to others. (Now I might be speaking about myself)
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 24, 2008 5:35:31 GMT -5
See, that's the whole deal Just because he is confused doesn't really protect him from an asshole. If Roman (or Vanessa) has no problem with having an asshole boyfriend, that's his problem, but I don't feel the need to think highly of them because of it. I just sort of don't believe that assholes deserve to be coddled. I'm sure we all have been assholes to others at one point in our lives, but for me it's just natural that you feel bad for it, move on, and try to be nicer with the next person (ideally also apologize to the person you wronged, but it might not always be feasible in real life). We have seen Deniz being quite capable of carrying on a rather elaborate lie with Vanessa and carrying on an elaborate lie with Roman when he was cheating on him. So why exactly should I believe that his "love" for Roman is particularly true? You know, fool me once, shame on your, fool me twice, shame on me. Deniz seems like a guy who when faced with stress react with elaborate lying. Not just denial, but long, complicated lies. Not a particularly attractive personality trait and particularly not when he doesn't do a good job of seeming sorry or tortured over it. It's the Leonhard phenomenon. At this point I just look at it as "Roman is a nice, flawed, funny, gay character on a soap. Deniz is a messed up asshole who just happens to be on the same soap too" and it's gonna stay that way until Deniz does something to redeem himself. I guess I just don't see Deniz as a guy who is worth being patient for. Particularly since it seems that he has a lot of unflattering personality traits that go beyond being denial about being gay (like in regards to the whole modelling thing while playing innocent about it). Of course, I'm all open to him being redeemed. But right now he is firmly on my "annoying" list. (and hey, soaps have a reasonable amount of women viewership; so even if it might be a case of realism, they still have to find a way to make it seem reasonably likable even to us) I fully understand that Deniz needs help in coming out. I just have a hard time seeing that as very romantic. (which in reality wouldn't be a problem: I doubt that too many guys end up forever and ever with the guy they came out with; but a soap is sort of a closed environment where there aren't really a whole lot of other options for either character; if I had completely freedom in how the story would go then Roman would help Deniz with his coming out and hold his hand through it and they would agree to remain friends and both find other partners; because they honestly don't strike me as very appealingly romantic at the moment) Not to mention that awesome irony of him saying "You can tell yourself whatever you want/You can convince yourself of whatever you want" (einreden) followed by "I'm with Vanessa/I love her/There is nothing you can change about it". So... who is trying to convince themselves of something? I do think that Roman really realized something in that episode. Before he was probably just upset and angry that Deniz seemed to move on so easily. Now he finally saw/realized that it Deniz is a lot more messed up than he might let on, so I'm thinking Roman gained a deeper understanding for him. Sure, Roman has been saying just that since the beginning, but saying it and actually seeing it confirmed are two different things.
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Post by babylondancer on Apr 24, 2008 7:47:30 GMT -5
You forget that the biggest lie of all has been Roman telling Deniz that he wouldn't be able to skate anymore. So I guess they're even when it comes to lying. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Roman/Dennis and would never start anything with Deniz/Igor (not my type at all) but I kinda understand Deniz. Basically, he hasn't lied to achive something, but because he was scared and didn't know a better way. Sorry to say it again, but that's just how we guys are. I can't remember how often I lied because I didn't want to hurt people and in the end I hurted them much more then if I had been telling the truth from the beginning. And sometimes we're just trying to find an easy way out. That's what Deniz did when he lied to Roman and Vanessa. On the one hand he couldn't leave Roman because he still felt guilty, and on the other hand he didn't have to guts to tell Vanessa. And when he lied to the model, it was just the same. Never ask a guy if he has a boy/girlfriend, he'll never tell you the truth. lol We always want to flirt and be loved, and we know that we become uninteresting as soon as we're in a relationship. That's what hundreds of screwball comedies are based on, men lying and telling new lies to maintain the old one when everybody around them already figured out that they were lying. And we always believe that we can charme out way out of the misery.
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