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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 22, 2008 21:04:21 GMT -5
I don't mean to be rude, but I think playing the Pussycat Dolls "Don'cha" was misplaced strictly because... well to use a fine Southern saying "you need to bring ass to get ass". Thin isn't always pretty and it certainly isn't always a model. I agree with the person who was unhappy hearing "Breathe Me" being played for Marian & Nina. That was just WRONG on so many levels. Deniz totally gets his stupidity when it comes to emotions from his father. Oy! Vanessa & Ben have such good but wholly inappropriate chemistry considering they're siblings. Interesting that the siblings who are committing incest willingly have like tepid chemistry at best. Anyhoo, I didn't know Ben & Vanessa had actually had sex!! I thought they'd only just started dating when they found out they were related. Oops. If they weren't related, I could totally get behind them as a couple. The fight between Ben & Deniz was well done and from what I could understand, Deniz was saying was all kinds of ugly things to Ben. I think there is jealousy but I think Deniz is more afraid of losing the person who seems to be the most stable influence in his life after his father. Nothing like having a fight between 2 guys where one is the brother of the girlfriend & also happens to be her ex-boyfriend while the boyfriend of said girl is pulled of the brother/ex by his own ex-boyfriend. Gotta love the soaps. So yea, it was weird that Vanessa took Ben back to her place to fix him up and Roman was left to take care of Deniz. Considering how rocky things have been between the latter two the past month, it was kinda strange to see. Yet it just came across as so right to me seeing them together not bitching each other out. *sigh* After watching the kiss, I don't know what to make of it. Heat of the moment thing where deep-seated feelings resurface? Seems like Ben/Vanessa and Deniz/Roman were affected by the mood. I think tomorrow will help because like those who have seen it, I have to agree that there wasn't enough to really judge what the heck was going on when Deniz went at Roman with his mouth.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 22, 2008 23:09:52 GMT -5
Sometimes I question whether the AWZ TPTB speak English because what exactly did the song's lyrics have to do with the situation in this case? Because Nina comes across as way too bitchy and manipulative for me to be "Ooops/I've fallen again/I'm needy/etc". And Marian didn't excactly come to unwrap her either. Maybe they should stick to German songs since they seem to be better at placing those. And yes, the pacing was just sort of weird. I was wondering if I had missed a big blowup fight between Deniz and Vanessa that would make either of their reactions seem more rational. Instead it was just at lot of I mean it doesn't exactly bother me, since I don't exactly care deeply about their storyline, it just feels
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valso
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Post by valso on Apr 23, 2008 5:14:18 GMT -5
Honestly I'm a little disappointed, I hoped for something more between them. I'm sad that the kiss was painted like a reaction to the Ben/Vanessa bonding. I guess this doesn't sound promising for the future. The worst thing is that I have no idea of what passes in Deniz head and I'm afraid that the writers don't know it either.
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Post by babylondancer on Apr 23, 2008 5:39:55 GMT -5
I still believe that Deniz is basically a confused kid. You shouldn't forget that he comes from a turkish family where being gay is still much more repressed then in Germany. They seem to be pretty much muslims because they don't seem to eat pork. So accepting his feelings for a man must have been very hard for him even though from the inuendo I supposed there was already something before Roman. And then he started to have feelings for Vanessa which might be more or less brotherly but which he reads wrong because he's still young and confused and doesn't want to be gay. There's also the fact that Roman lied to him. Deniz trusted Roman and felt guilty for the bashing and thought that Roman would never be able to skate again, and then suddenly it was all a lie. So it's understandable that Deniz turned to Vanessa for comfort, the girl he trusted who was like his best friend. And then sex came in between, and now he's all happy that he doesn't seem to be gay after all. But suddenly there's Roman taking care of him again, and Roman's face just in front of him which makes it pretty hard to stay straight.
As for Christian. I don't think he's been straight before Olli. He had way too much problems with Olli being gay. And he always was afraid about what people/his brother might think of him. That's not the usual behaviour for a guy who's 100% sure of being straight. Because then you just don't care. We shouldn't forget that he's been in prison = in a strong male society where the most important thing is to be very masculine and to show the others that they can't mess with you. Being considered gay in a prison might be one of the toughest situations for a guy. So Christian might already have had doubts before but learned to be strong and masculine and straight. And then Olli came along, and Christian backed off from Olli because he was too afraid to discover his own true self. But we all know that there was no way to resist Olli. :-)
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 5:56:50 GMT -5
Except that doesn't seem to stop them from drinking and serving alcohol... [which isn't really surprising considering the muslims I went to school with]
As for Christian, who knows. I can picture him just being very, very, very good at deep self denial. I think with Deniz it was much more on the surface. Like Deniz was already pretty much up the mountain and only needed a push to topple over. While Christian still had to be dragged up the moutain and then down the other side.
It seems doubtful that the writers really planned that but I have no problem buying Christian's posturing and yelling at people and beating them up as repressed yearnings (Andi...).
Deniz, I think quickly would have toppled on his own, even if no Roman had been there because he eventually would have noticed that he didn't fit in 100% with the ice hockey team. He was just lucky that Roman was there to help him with it.
With Christian it happened because (1) Olli hit his fancy hard and (2) Olli just wouldn't go away. Otherwise Christian would probably have been fine trying to keep running away (also because he is better fitting in, both in macho attitudes and with women). Probably there would have been more homoerotic friendships in his life and more confusion eventually.
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Gabi
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Post by Gabi on Apr 23, 2008 6:00:57 GMT -5
I still believe that Deniz is basically a confused kid. You shouldn't forget that he comes from a turkish family where being gay is still much more repressed then in Germany. They seem to be pretty much muslims because they don't seem to eat pork. So accepting his feelings for a man must have been very hard for him even though from the inuendo I supposed there was already something before Roman. And then he started to have feelings for Vanessa which might be more or less brotherly but which he reads wrong because he's still young and confused and doesn't want to be gay. There's also the fact that Roman lied to him. Deniz trusted Roman and felt guilty for the bashing and thought that Roman would never be able to skate again, and then suddenly it was all a lie. So it's understandable that Deniz turned to Vanessa for comfort, the girl he trusted who was like his best friend. And then sex came in between, and now he's all happy that he doesn't seem to be gay after all. But suddenly there's Roman taking care of him again, and Roman's face just in front of him which makes it pretty hard to stay straight. Yes; and even more, it's not only being confused; it's his conviction as a muslim that being gay is sinful, even though he's not aware of that. So he actually hates himself, and he hates Roman, for being gay. It became clear to me by watching his reaction to the Ben/Vanessa incest, which is even more a sin. Remeber the locker room f*ing scene? For a weird moment I had the impression of "all beauty must die" (you know, Roman, the WILD rose). Deep inside Deniz knows the truth, and he loves Roman, but he feels it's wrong. If Roman can remain as calm and clear as in that episode, maybe he'll be able to help Deniz sort out those puzzling thoughts and feelings; and, being generous and still loving Deniz, he may forgive him all the lies and cheating.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 6:10:28 GMT -5
I don't know. What I have seen so far on the show their treatment of Islam is beyond casual. I mean they drink, they don't pray, and Deniz telling imaginary Vanessa that maybe he could keep both Vanessa and Roman as his co-wives because of Islam was pretty much as cluelessly blasphemous as you can get.
Most muslims in Germany have a hard time being very faithful to their faith (last but not least because drinking beer is more or less a question of peer pressure in Germany).
If anything the attitudes strike me more of a case of "You can't be a manly turkish macho man and still be gay at the same time" (which I suspect is Marian's problem too with the whole issue rather than them having a deep concept of sin the way a Catholic might have).
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Gabi
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Post by Gabi on Apr 23, 2008 6:20:04 GMT -5
It's not necessarily the religious aspect of being muslim, but the socialization, the way of living; in any case something beyond ratio.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 6:53:37 GMT -5
Except that Deniz' family doesn't really live a particularly muslim lifestyle, doesn't hang out with any other muslims and he grew up with his apparently non-muslim mother.
Don't get me wrong I fully believe that Deniz has a truckload masculinity vs. being gay issues (see, him trying to prove his manliness to the ice hockey team). But if the AWZ writers intended islam to have a lot to do with it they have done a very crappy job of portraying it. They had many opportunities to insert something in that regard and really didn't. (which doesn't mean that they might not use that as the eventual explanation; but I would just consider that highly shoddy writing since they didn't do their homework in regards to the buildup, since Deniz seems to be as much muslim as I'm catholic which is to say not a whole lot)
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Gabi
Junior Member
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Post by Gabi on Apr 23, 2008 7:12:40 GMT -5
You're right, lolaruns. What I'm trying to say is that despite leading their lives without caring much about religion and traditions, Marian and Deniz still are children of theit own culture. They may not even know about the influence that those ancient rules still has on them.
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Post by babylondancer on Apr 23, 2008 8:53:58 GMT -5
But that's exactly how a lot of modern muslims are living in Germany. E.g. I know a woman who wears very sexy clothes, who has passed her a-levels and is now working full-time. She goes out with friends and everything, but she doesn't want a non-muslim boyfriend, and she can't stand someone putting pork in her fridge. Even though she's living a modern life, she still has these traditional values. The same goes for a lot of catholics. They might live a modern life, but still only eat fish on fridays. And it's always difficult to get over wrongs you learned as a kid even if you might know that it's just completely b/s. It's like Marian who knows deep in his heart that there's nothing wrong with being gay and who always accepted Roman as long as he wasn't sleeping with Deniz.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 9:00:20 GMT -5
I can totally see the cultural issues making it difficult for Deniz to accept that he's gay, though I think he truly knows he is. I know it's similar in the Black community that cultural standards can make it difficult for a gay man to accept himself let alone come out & have others accept him. That said, I think Deniz is absolutely confused but I have to agree that the writers aren't doing a bang up job in showing what's going on in his mind and his conflicts. I am hoping the writers don't go down the Vanessa/Deniz as a great love story cause the story is just not nearly as good nor do I buy that either character is in love with each other. I think if anything last night's episode showed that Vanessa can spark with someone though unfortunately it's her brother. And that Ben seems to more important to her. With Deniz, he and Vanessa really need to be just friends. DeVa needs to end pronto but Deniz is still too much of a mess for DeRo to start back up again immediately.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 9:15:07 GMT -5
That's close to the muslims I know too. But most of these strike me as learned behaviors (like I don't know, clinking your glasses) rather than things they necessarily deeply believe in/know WHY they are doing it. (for the record, my catholicness never affected me eating fish and I was never taught any rules in that regard, It's possible that I have never eaten fish on a Friday but it's not something I keep track of; and even if there are people who don't eat fish on Fridays, there is probably a good share of people who don't know WHY they are doing that and how serious or non-serious it is in a religious context; if it's in the bible, church scripture or just a local custom)
And Deniz has actually displayed even less of these characteristics than I'm used to, probably because he doesn't have any Muslim friends. To me the muslim kids weren't really more traditional than the Serbian (Serbian Orthodox Christian church) kids and the reason they were similar is because they hung out with Muslim/Serbian kids and those groups had a very macho boy dynamic.
If Deniz really fears homosexuality in a purely religious sense (as in: I will not get into paradise/I will go to hell kind of way), why do we see so little of it? It's not like he isn't committing countless other acts that would ALSO land him in hell. And who exactly is supposed to have taught him that? Marian? Who doesn't exactly seem particularly religious either? Or his mom who mostly raised him?
I can easily picture Deniz holding on to some abstract manly turkish identity to for example distinguish himself from his mother. But to me that is very different from concepts like belief/religion/sin.
I would be all for a storyline where Deniz is shown to really think about religion, about whether he believes in God, about whether the things he does are good in God's eyes (since based on the countless "How to be gay and Christian/Muslim/Jewish" documentaries coming out lately) except that so far we haven't really seen him display anything along those lines.
Your average soap barely pays lip service to the culture of any turkish characters they have. It's usually just a code for "slightly more old fashioned in things like sleeping around than others". Mostly because those type of attitudes (like the disapproving father) are very useful, but you can't put these characteristics on a German character without them coming off like evil bigots who have to be reformed. Make the character turkish and you can just say "Oh, it's a cultural things!" when the same wouldn't work for let's say "Bavarian back country Catholic".
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Post by babylondancer on Apr 23, 2008 9:23:45 GMT -5
I really can't imagine Deniz and Vanessa having hot, passionate sex. If they're still sleeping together it can only be tender, slow and boring, like old couples might still be sleeping together after the passion has long been gone.
It must be confusing for Vanessa too. On one side, there's Ben who she has passionate erotic feelings for, but who's her brother. On the other side, there's Deniz who must feel like a brother to her (come on, they've been good friends for way too long to suddenly discover passionate feelings for each other), but who's her b/f. Life sometimes just s*cks. lol
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 10:40:44 GMT -5
Someone just posted in-depth intriguing insight on the blog under last night's clip about Deniz, Roman and Vanessa. Yes, I see it as less religious and more a cultural thing that he's embracing. Lola, I didn't see as much zoolandering as you, but Igor is really playing up Deniz as being a terrible model despite his good looks. Seeing Vanessa with Ben made me realize even more how wrong I find DeVa just because looking at Vanessa looking at Ben... she's never looked at Deniz that way. The passion that Deniz lacks for her that we've seen him show Roman I now am able to see she lacks for Deniz cause she shows it with Ben. I really wish Ben wasn't her brother. (I also don't find the actor that bad so unlike Gaytime, I am not issuing a [shadow=red,300]BAA[/shadow] alert though I have issued one on VL's Lisa. ) With yesterday's ep it is like a new ballgame, but I still feel like the writers are totally slacking in showing us what's going on in Deniz's head which is SO pivotal for this story to work well. If he's who everyone is supposed to want to be with, we should have some idea of his turmoil. Instead, we know he bolts at the first sign of bad news and can't deal with revealing his emotions much. I liked the bench scenes with he and Roman cause they were talking instead of yelling. It also mirrors an earlier scene of Roman taking care of Deniz. Anyhoo, Roman was telling him flat out that feelings don't necessarily die when the relationship ends, which we all know but I think Deniz had no clue about. It was one of the most honest, non-confrontational conversations they've had in a long time. I liked seeing it. I really hope today explains better what prompted Deniz's kiss & I can't wait to know Roman's reaction to it all. I think despite everything, Roman understands Deniz a lot more than he realizes and certainly more than Deniz and Vanessa realize. I didn't bring my laptop to work so I am hoping for screencaps and details of 411.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 10:52:01 GMT -5
But that's my problem. We don't really see Deniz doing much "being cultural" aside from various references to Marian flying home to Turkey on occasion. Probably because he doesn't have any turkish friends we can see him interact with.
We already got to see Deniz in a sort of group dynamic situation with his team and the teasing and the gaybashing, but it feels like they ended that part of the storyline and it has left a motivation vaccuum. I'd be all for a storyline where Deniz, after neither team nor his father gave him a reason not to be with Roman, started making up his own reasons but I guess I just see enough hints of that in the storyline.
I guess I'm just really sick of trying to guess why exactly the characters are doing what they are doing. Sure, most of the time it's fun, but strictly speaking it's not the job of the viewers to make up explanations for the characters' actions. It's the job of the show and the actors to show us that.
As for Vanessa and Ben, it's fairly shocking how it seems that she grew disenchanted of Deniz rather quickly (at least in that episode). Even if we presume that she doesn't love him the way she loves Ben weren't they friends at one point? It just all seems very strange.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 11:04:27 GMT -5
But that's my problem. We don't really see Deniz doing much "being cultural" aside from various references to Marian flying home to Turkey on occasion. Probably because he doesn't have any turkish friends we can see him interact with. We already got to see Deniz in a sort of group dynamic situation with his team and the teasing and the gaybashing, but it feels like they ended that part of the storyline and it has left a motivation vaccuum. I'd be all for a storyline where Deniz, after neither team nor his father gave him a reason not to be with Roman, started making up his own reasons but I guess I just see enough hints of that in the storyline. I guess I'm just really sick of trying to guess why exactly the characters are doing what they are doing. Sure, most of the time it's fun, but strictly speaking it's not the job of the viewers to make up explanations for the characters' actions. It's the job of the show and the actors to show us that. As for Vanessa and Ben, it's fairly shocking how it seems that she grew disenchanted of Deniz rather quickly (at least in that episode). Even if we presume that she doesn't love him the way she loves Ben weren't they friends at one point? It just all seems very strange. But you can have your culture influence you while still not practicing traditional cultural beliefs. It can be where certain ideologies have been instilled in you from birth and while you may not practice them, on some level you embrace them and they can reflect in your ideals of morality and values. I think this is where Deniz is. And yes, we have to do too much fanwanking or drawing conclusions to things cause it seems like the writers don't know exactly what they want to do so with the characters thus a lot of things have a sense of uncertainty. The whole Vanessa not talking to Deniz thing was weird too. It was like once Ben was there she forgot about Deniz. Maybe today will explain that better too.
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Gabi
Junior Member
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Post by Gabi on Apr 23, 2008 11:18:30 GMT -5
And yes, we have to do too much fanwanking or drawing conclusions to things cause it seems like the writers don't know exactly what they want to do so with the characters thus a lot of things have a sense of uncertainty. I finally found someone who shares my opinion, see comment # 8 on the blog: Anonymous said... Maybe analyzing between the lines we sometimes forget to see the blindingly obvious intentions the directors, actors and writers show in the actual texts and storylines. I think this episode had was a pretty clear statement about the state of affairs. *Gabi, I fixed your quote tag.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 11:22:10 GMT -5
Except what kind of clear statement is it if it's not consistent with the episodes leading up to it? Sounds like just poor writing to me. Whatever. I hope they get out of their funk soon. If that is the first episode of a new era so be it. I'm all for it.
Technically "text" is Deniz having a flashbacks of Ben/Vanessa and getting angry. "text" is Deniz claiming to be in love with Vanessa in various past episodes as well as vice versa (not that I buy it either). And making up stuff between the lines is interpreting deeper reasons into it when they don't even bother to show us "text" in the form of flashbacks, dream sequences, commentaries by other characters and the like.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 11:26:10 GMT -5
Gabi & Lola, I am a mix of both of your thoughts. On one hand, I see what Gabi and that anon poster are saying about things being clear & direct but on the other hand I am totally in agreement with Lola that there are still a lot of inconsistencies in the writing with regard to motivations. Yesterday was great in showing the audience that the feelings between Ben/Vanessa were far from dead as well as igniting something between Deniz/Roman but the lead up was very "the hell?"
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 11:31:41 GMT -5
Well, I'm all for it getting better from today on and I'll gladly just blank the last few weeks from my mind even if they make no sense ;D Let's keep our fingers crossed.
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Gabi
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Post by Gabi on Apr 23, 2008 11:31:52 GMT -5
Except what kind of clear statement is it if it's not consistent with the episodes leading up to it? Sounds like just poor writing to me. Whatever. I hope they get out of their funk soon. If that is the first episode of a new era so be it. I'm all for it. Technically "text" is Deniz having a flashbacks of Ben/Vanessa and getting angry. "text" is Deniz claiming to be in love with Vanessa in various past episodes as well as vice versa (not that I buy it either). And making up stuff between the lines is interpreting deeper reasons into it when they don't even bother to show us "text" in the form of flashbacks, dream sequences, commentaries by other characters and the like. Okay, but don't listen to the words ... Deniz claims to love Vanessa, that's what he says, but the way he says it does not make me believe a single word, and that's what many of us feel when they find no sparks at all between DeVa. Igor plays Deniz as someone who is obviously not speaking the truth. Maybe he wants to believe in his love for Vanessa, his body language tells his real feelings. "Text" is not only what is said.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 11:38:29 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't seeing any impressive body towards Roman either. Not when they kissed yesterday and not when they interacted previously. He might not have been playing any great love towards Vanessa, but he wasn't playing yearning for Roman or missing him either or even any sort of anguish. He just played bland. Which normally wouldn't be much of a problem on a soap (being a bit bland surely is a widespread disease among soap actors), but if the storyline doesn't make much sense and the acting doesn't make much sense either that pretty much kills the appeal. Sometimes great acting can fill the holes of bad writing. And sometimes having consistent obvious writing can make it obvious what the character is supposed to be feeling even if the acting is poor. If you don't have either you are fucked.
I'm all for Deniz not loving Vanessa, but the show didn't give us a good reason for what he was doing with her. (like acting hurt when people suggested he wasn't rich enough for Vanessa)
There were roughly a gazillion tricks they could have used to drive home what was going on inside of Deniz (flashbacks, third party characters talking about it, Deniz having conversations with others that made his motives obvious) and they didn't. Hence, sucky storyline.
Let's hope that ends/changes today.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 23, 2008 11:40:10 GMT -5
Except what kind of clear statement is it if it's not consistent with the episodes leading up to it? Sounds like just poor writing to me. Whatever. I hope they get out of their funk soon. If that is the first episode of a new era so be it. I'm all for it. Technically "text" is Deniz having a flashbacks of Ben/Vanessa and getting angry. "text" is Deniz claiming to be in love with Vanessa in various past episodes as well as vice versa (not that I buy it either). And making up stuff between the lines is interpreting deeper reasons into it when they don't even bother to show us "text" in the form of flashbacks, dream sequences, commentaries by other characters and the like. Okay, but don't listen to the words ... Deniz claims to love Vanessa, that's what he says, but the way he says it does not make me believe a single word, and that's what many of us feel when they find no sparks at all between DeVa. Igor plays Deniz as someone who is obviously not speaking the truth. Maybe he wants to believe in his love for Vanessa, his body language tells his real feelings. "Text" is not only what is said. Yes. Gabi, I totally agree with what you think on the issue of Deniz's lip service. When he says he is IN love with Vanessa, it's totally hollow to me. Totally loves her but is not in love with her. What I am still disturbed about is the Ben/Vanessa chemistry. Well, I wasn't seeing any impressive body language towards Roman either. Not when they kissed yesterday and not when they interacted previously. He might not have been playing any great love towards Vanessa, but he wasn't playing yearning for Roman or missing him either or even any sort of anguish. He just played bland. Which normally wouldn't be much of a problem on a soap (being a bit bland surely is a widespread disease among soap actors), but if the storyline doesn't make much sense and the acting doesn't make much sense either that pretty much kills the appeal. Sometimes great acting can fill the holes of bad writing. And sometimes having consistent obvious writing can make it obvious what the character is supposed to be feeling even if the acting is poor. If you don't have either you are fucked. I have to agree, which is what is frustrating me about this storyline. TIIC are not writing things as clearly as they could so the uncertainty aspect is an annoyance. The writers need to stop being so vague and either give Igor more to show what the hell is going on with Deniz or Igor needs to do it on his own. I still see DeRo magic but I don't see the angst nor the conflict in emotions from Deniz. Has 411 aired yet? Please let that clear up some of yesterday's odd pacing.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 23, 2008 11:49:19 GMT -5
411 starts airing in 10 minutes or so.
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