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Post by ivaniv on Feb 17, 2010 11:07:09 GMT -5
I liked Lilian shopping for a scarf: "I'll look like a right twat without a scarf" ;D ;D ;D She's my favourite. And that was some speech from Mickey. He's the only one normal in Maguire family, everybody else is so numb.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Feb 17, 2010 11:10:00 GMT -5
I was really impressed by the acting in this episode, especially from Ciaran Griffiths. That tirade he gave to Ian about how he had loved Ian and Ian was the one who made him stop feeling like a freak -- wow. One of the most searing moments I've ever seen on TV. I still can't get it out of my head. Elliott T. was also much better than I was expecting.
I'm glad they didn't try to cut corners and give Ian an out like they did the last time he was with a woman. He didn't know why he did what he did, he doesn't suddenly think he's straight, he just wanted Maxine and he wasn't able to stop himself. He decided to make a hugely messy decision and now he can live with that, and we'll see if he actually does care for Maxine, or she for him. I've seen some say that the show shouldn't have made him "go straight" but I don't think it's going to be that simple.
I was surprised they actually had Maxine and Ian use Carl and Mickey for sex the way they did. That part was the most callous and probably darkest of the episode for me. I think that's what really set them off, especially Mickey.
I don't know if he loves Maxine or if he's just infatuated with her since he didn't look down on her the way he did with Mickey. But my real question is -- how does she feel about him? Is she only with him because she feels sorry for him over his life falling apart? She seemed a little more hesitant than he was about doing anything, and then at the end, it seemed like they kept showing an unsure or depressed look on her face as Ian took her hand, Ian was on the bed with her. Then Mickey's narration said something about comfort in the dark only lasts for a little while.
Anyway, another question. I thought Maxine having this gay brother was a bit shoehorned into the episode. Do you think Ian's going to sleep with him at some point? Otherwise I'm not sure what he was doing there. I would say Mickey would get together with him but I don't know.
This episode was dark but the scenes with Carl/Ian, Mickey/Carl and Mickey/Ian were so fab I watched them several times. I saw a comment which said Mickey was treated as a joke. I think finally that wasn't the case. I think, or at least hope, that this has finally shattered the illusions he'd built up about his relationship with Mickey and his life. I hope they won't just shrug this off and we will see some real changes for Mickey, and eventually have him find the love he deserves.
Now I want Ciaran Griffiths to get a big award, I think I'm going to remember his work in this episode for a long time.
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 17, 2010 11:39:45 GMT -5
Does the sex scene between Ian and Mickey that we see in the previews happen in this episode?
Or is that set up for a later episode?
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Feb 17, 2010 13:50:54 GMT -5
That was in this episode. Ian was doing that to try to get his mind off Maxine.
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 17, 2010 14:27:10 GMT -5
Good. Hopefully, this means Mickey will be allowed to spin in a new direction that's his own rather than related to Ian's brooding "I can't make a decision without sabotaging myself" mess. I expect that he will mess up whatever he has with Maxine as well. So, that's of less interest to me.
I certainly would be annoyed if the sole point is to make this about Ian rather than Mickey. Like I said, I think Mickey's character is the most interesting, and from what I am reading (having not yet seen it yet), it sounds like the actor is someone capable of both staying extremely funny while exploring other elements of the character.
Re: Maxine
It sounds like she's just spiraling out of control rather than really wanting to be with him , especially coming off of being with the brother and the abortion.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Feb 17, 2010 14:56:27 GMT -5
I think Maxine probably sees Ian as a comfort, but other than that I'm not sure if she has any feelings for him. I don't know if she's prepared for his problems -- he has no one else now and for all that she tired of Carl's immaturity, I wonder if that was easier for her in the long run. It seemed like her parents were also very heavy and she may not want a relationship like that. Ian probably also sees her as a comfort. Since the show has put them together I hope they explore this and don't just say, "Oops, Ian's not into the ladies," and break that up fast. I still wonder if something is going to happen with Ian and the brother.
Yeah, Ciaran was fantastic in this episode. I never want them to stop using Mickey for comedy but he more than proved this week that he can handle heavy drama.
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Post by davedoty on Feb 17, 2010 18:42:13 GMT -5
While Mickey was right to call Ian out for using him for sex, the "you're a traitor" stuff was just ridiculous. Just because someone projects their idea of an ideal whatever onto you, doesn't mean you have to live your life straightjacketed by that person's view of you. A gay man sleeping with a woman may or may not be a bad idea, but it doesn't make you a "traitor" to other gays.
Not counting the ill-fated blowjob in the pilot, this is Ian's third dalliance with a woman, although he didn't follow through with Mandy last year. As such, I think it's probably time to acknowledge that he's somewhere in the bi part of the spectrum, leaning towards the gay end. And Ian shouldn't have to repress or refuse to acknowledge that because Mickey decided that he should represent some sort of Platonic ideal of gayness.
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Post by axelmoto on Feb 17, 2010 19:30:04 GMT -5
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Feb 17, 2010 19:50:36 GMT -5
Was the stuff with Mandy when he had memory problems? I didn't see that. I agree that they should just have him as bi; even if it doesn't end well with Maxine, there seems to be a good chance he will be involved with another woman eventually. Hopefully any breakup with her will be about their issues and not just sexuality.
You're right that the "traitor" comments were ridiculous, although that truly is how a lot of gay men feel when a gay man becomes involved with a woman. I think it's even worse with Mickey because Ian is the only gay man he's been close to. Mickey was in such pain, as he had put so much of his own identity onto Ian.
The key to that meltdown was when Ian started saying maybe it's about love, not gender, and so on. Mickey has no identity in his family, he's an afterthought. In his homosexuality, he has something. He's proud of something. If that's in question, then what does he have?
That's true for some gay men (and of course true for some straight people as well). It's an interesting dilemma, and you're right that Mickey shouldn't blame Ian for all that. I think it's another example of their relationship not being the most healthy as it was.
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Post by davedoty on Feb 17, 2010 19:54:32 GMT -5
No, the stuff with Mandy was before that. I don't remember which episode, but he and Mandy were sitting around consoling each other about how lonely they were, and one thing led to another. One thing kept going wrong after another, and when Mandy fell off the bed, Ian came to his senses and called it off.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Feb 17, 2010 20:20:21 GMT -5
Thanks.
What did you think of the stories with Kelly/Paddy (what was Kelly having the kids do? Was it just like a place for them to stay?) and with Jamie escorting? That seemed a bit random to me. I think Jamie's handsome but I can't quite imagine him being lined up as a prize stud, especially in a backwater pub. The scene where he couldn't have sex with Karen was harrowing.
Are Shane and Mickey also supposed to start escorting? I thought I'd read that before the season started.
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Post by davedoty on Feb 17, 2010 20:56:25 GMT -5
Normally I would probably enjoy the Kelly/Paddy drama, but right now I just want one relationship to be going well, and it's obviously going to damage Kelly and Shane's relationship eventually. I know that conflict is the heart of drama, but I think they're going overboard right now. Up above I used the word "joyless" to describe the current eps, and it's quite appropriate. Yes, put couples through hell, but have another couple be happy to balance it out. Then put the happy couple through hell, and give the other characters a respite.
I was kind of hoping the madame spoiler was wrong. The last thing Karen and Jamie need is more crap raining down on them. At this point, it's hard to even remember what I liked about them as a couple. Spoilers for the future suggest that I'm right about trouble for Kelly and Shane. And if Mickey becomes a gigolo, it will be pretty ironic in light of his rant yesterday.
As for whether it's realistic for Jamie to be an escort: there's no such thing as a male escort working for women. A research group was doing a study on sex workers, and they literally couldn't find a single such man to include in their study. So since the whole thing is a fantasy to start with, I'm willing to go with it.
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 17, 2010 21:50:59 GMT -5
Bisexuality
My issue with Ian's character is not that he's bisexual or not.
It is that in European films and tv there is this tendency (and I have seen a lot of this) to make it seem like gays are just waiting around for the right woman to come along. If Ian's character is bi, they should just say that. This whole "oh he's actually gay" is actually annoying.
Let's be clear here. Remember that moment in the show where he suffers a blow to the head, and, he forgets who he is, and thinks he is straight. Well, I've seen that before in a movie out of Europe. That exact scenario. That's why it annoys me. It's basically a European cliche to me that gay men are all just bisexual.
This is my problem with the approach as a story line. I do know there are real bisexuals. I don't have a problem with it. I don't feel betrayed if they show real bisexual men. I just have a problem with them making gay men waiting around for women in order to have "real relationships." It is an offensive concept no matter how they do it.
A friend of mine loves "Home at the End of the World." I think that's the title. The reason why is that the guy chooses the guy over the woman, and it is a clear choice that the guy makes. In part, I wonder if that's because the lead actor's brother in real life is gay?
He choose the gay character not out of desperation. Not even for sex. But a choice he makes. That lead character is bi, and he choses a gay man. All of us watching knew the lead is bi, and we would have been okay with either choice because they treated either choice with respect.
But, the important part is that we were not treated as lesser. We are not treated as lesser than the straight characters regarding being a viable choice for relationships. In other words, what many people probably are bother by is the story line, which comes out of pop culture, rather than the concept of bisexuality. We are told we are lesser and that's the concept that the show is reinforcing.
I think a lot of us are offended that they make it seem like we are not capable of real relationships or that if we are then it has to be the perfect relationship. I would much prefer- if they are going to show a gay couple break up- that they show it be another man coming between them. I can not remember a movie doing that or tv show.
Just to make that point more than they often do in TV shows.
Now, clearly that's not really the case here. Ian is screwed up regardless of who he dates. However, I do find the premise to be a cliche from European shows at this point that we are all just waiting around even if we mostly gay for a woman. Nothing against them. But our relationships are not lesser than any other type of relationship.
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Post by stl29tide on Feb 17, 2010 21:56:50 GMT -5
There's a male escort who works in a brothel owned by a woman in Las Vegas. They might be hard to find, but, they're out there.
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 17, 2010 21:58:28 GMT -5
There is one. But, we don't know how much business he actually has. He's also a raging homophobe.
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Post by davedoty on Feb 17, 2010 22:11:26 GMT -5
There's a male escort who works in a brothel owned by a woman in Las Vegas. They might be hard to find, but, they're out there. But they JUST hired him, out of response to a change in the law, rather than out of any actual demand.
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Post by stl29tide on Feb 17, 2010 23:11:12 GMT -5
True, but, all I'm saying is just because a scientific study didn't find any doesn't mean they're not out there. Most places don't have legal prostitution, so a lot of escort services are done under the radar and I highly doubt that the study found every single illegal prostitution business on the face of the planet to prove that there is not one single man.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Feb 17, 2010 23:12:36 GMT -5
Didn't Ian quickly decide he was gay even after he got amnesia?
I agree with you about the cliche of a gay man not being able to have a real relationship until he's with a woman. I don't really know if that's what Ian's story is doing though. They took great pains to show just how hurtful this relationship was to everyone involved. The ending was less true love conquers all and more, we're done so much damage, what's going to happen now, is it worth it? Ian seems to think it's worth it, but I guess we'll see. I will be surprised if it lasts for more than a few more episodes.
I see what you mean about media reinforcing our doubts, although I don't know if I can put that on this storyline, as I felt like they provided a counterpoint with Mickey's anger and I don't think they were taking that much away from what was already there. Ian, and most of the other characters, are never really in happy relationships, not for long anyway. I guess it's unfair that they haven't had any of the straight characters decide to get together with their own sex, at least with men, but I don't think the show is sending a message about gay men. I don't see it as breaking a gay couple up because there was no gay couple.
I wish there were more films or shows where gay men didn't get killed, or kill themselves, or die of AIDS, or sleep around and take drugs, or obsess over having babies. There's such a laundry list of cliches. Being with a woman is definitely one of those cliches, although I think it's changed from the days of Jodie Tate.
You're right that there aren't enough stories involving a gay triangle - on Brothers & Sisters, Kevin broke up with his boyfriend to get back together with Scotty, and then they had the Fish/Kyle/Nick story on OLTL, but those were never true triangles.
I guess I see this more as a very dramatic storyline with lots of potential to go in various directions, and not so much as a statement on gays. If I saw Ian that way I'd have written him off after he had sex with that woman a few years ago. If this story ends in Ian going back to men and still being unhappy and Mickey pining for him, I'll be disappointed. I'm really hoping that this will be a kick for both of their storylines and characterizations, because I don't see a way for them to be the same after this, especially Mickey.
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 17, 2010 23:52:17 GMT -5
a) He remembered only after Mickey told him that he is a homosexual. In fact, Ian's family saw his injury as a chance to start over with him to correct where he went wrong. Remember Carl saying that? Indeed, until Mickey pulled him aside to tell him the truth, Ian was buying it and could not conceive that he is gay. I let the story line go because I felt it was just done for laughs, but did find it slightly offensive. Would a straight or even bi man, if he has amnesia, forget to whom he's attracted?
b) I honestly don't care what happens to Ian, and could see him go away without really thinking anything would be lose on the show. Even before this, he was blah as a gay character to me. Nothing stood out other than he sabotaged himself a lot. Yet another example, his brief affair with Lip's best mate. Really, for me, I watch it to see Mickey and his brothers, whom I think are more interesting. The only member of Ian's family who seems interesting in their characterizations are the youngest brother and the drunk father. Everyone else is clueless, but this kid, for example, is able to deduce that Mickey is gay.
c) I am not particularly seeking a coupling with Ian and Mickey. As I said, I don't think Ian is right for Mickey's character.
I agree that the best thing for Mickey's character is for this to have an effect on him. it would be boring to just have a reset where all of this did not matter for Mickey. I want him still to be a comic character, but, again, given the actor, I think there is the potential to be both dramatic and funny. The scene with Mickey telling his family off about relationships suggested his potential as an actor to me because he took charge of the scene from the strong actors around him in a dramatic rather than comic way.
d) Finally, I understand from what you are writing that the writers of the show here were trying for something different. But, as writers, you got to understand the context of whether a story line has been done so many times before that it is cliche.
It is not about a gay couple breaking up. It is about the idea that our attraction is not real. That being attracted to men is not real. That's the core thread that defines the gay man who is waiting for the right woman cliche.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Feb 18, 2010 0:35:46 GMT -5
a) He remembered only after Mickey told him that he is a homosexual. In fact, Ian's family saw his injury as a chance to start over with him to correct where he went wrong. Remember Carl saying that? Indeed, until Mickey pulled him aside to tell him the truth, Ian was buying it and could not conceive that he is gay. I let the story line go because I felt it was just done for laughs, but did find it slightly offensive. Would a straight or even bi man, if he has amnesia, forget to whom he's attracted? I guess it would depend on the man. I don't think they were saying that he couldn't remember who he was because he was gay. I see what you're saying, but I don't think the story is telling us that an attraction between men isn't real. Ian has felt real attractions to men in the past. So has Mickey. I don't feel like those have been devalued. I think they have had Ian feel something for someone who just happens to be a woman. I don't think they're trying to say that he's been waiting for the right woman. I know it can be interpreted that way but stories can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I think they've taken some pains to make sure it's not just a love between gay man and woman; they've made sure Mickey represents the gay man's point of view on the absurdity of this and they made sure people saw that the way Ian and Maxine behaved was wrong and not justified. I think their decision to do this was based more on wanting to cause conflict between Ian/Mickey and Ian/Carl than on a message about gay men. I guess we'll have to see where this goes. I just hope they aren't going to try to go back to what once was.
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Post by davedoty on Feb 18, 2010 0:45:23 GMT -5
Shameless has been an extremely inclusive series from the get-go, with Ian, Kash, Jez, Norma, Monica and Mickey as regular or recurring characters, not to mention the various GLB minor characters over the years. If any show on TV has earned the benefit of the doubt, it's Shameless.
Men who have self-identified as gay who later sleep with women happens. It's reality. The fact that other shows have handled it badly doesn't mean that TV can't explore that reality again. To be frank, it's not a story I particularly wanted to see, either. I think I even said as much somewhere upthread before the episode aired. But it's a far cry from "I don't want to see it" to accusations that they're trying to undermine the existence of gay identity.
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 18, 2010 0:51:00 GMT -5
Men who identify as gay who later sleep with women seem to happen more in the media than in real life. That's the point. I am really not trying to be political here. I am trying to call for new story lines. It is like gay bashing. While it happens, I don't need to see that in every other story involving gay men in a series. By the way, inclusive does not mean anything to me. The stories and characters do. I would rather have fewer characters than more so long as they are interesting.
By the way, at the end of your comment, you project a lot of things onto me that I never said. You may want to watch the need to do that. I am very specific about my criticism here.
It is fair for an audience that gets so little representation to question why the same representations occur out of proportion to reality. It is not about how well or badly it is done. It is about the repetition of narratives. this is not about "gay identity" whatever that means. this is about a repeating story that questions attraction in pop culture. I am very specific about what I say. I appreciate if you would respond to the specifics rather than some broad political point.
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 18, 2010 0:57:11 GMT -5
Carld2
I understand what their intent is with the story. I am not questioning the need to create conflict. My point is more broadly meant to discuss the issues that all writers face- how audiences will see our work. I am a writer. The wider gay audience looking at this will see it in the context of every other story they have seen. That's just natural. I am discussing why people naturally may be bothered by a story, however well done and conflict producing, that reinforces a given narrative in popular culture.
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Post by davedoty on Feb 23, 2010 1:23:05 GMT -5
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Post by shamelessfan on Feb 24, 2010 1:02:50 GMT -5
a) Maxine is a very destructive personality. I definitely don't see that relationship lasting.
b) Listening to Mickey chew Ian out, it seems that what bothered him was not just the sexuality angle, but also that Ian could do something so mean to his brother and not want to tell him about it. I think that plus the sexuality angle in combo is what made him call Ian a Ann Coulter because it made him finally see Ian for Ian.
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