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Post by lolaruns on Sept 24, 2008 12:26:06 GMT -5
To be honest? Because way too much past evidence has shown that good writing for gay (particularly gay male) characters mostly happens when there is a gay man at the helm somewhere. See Tom Chroust. See the writer of Night Shift. See Alan Ball. See the guy from Ugly Betty.
It's sad that that is still the case but it seems like whenever there is a gay storyline cropping up, chances are good you just have to fleece through the behind the scenes people to find a gay person who made it happen. That apparently most times it still needs a gay person who truly cares about the issue and the depiction rather than somebody non-gay writing it simply because it would be good drama or good business or because it fits the characters and the like.
Also, has VL really been good with continuity on different *couples*? I think they have done a decent job with keeping the characters the same even as a new writer gives them a new romance, ditto for things like sibling relationships (Ansgar/Carla/Leo spring to mind), but romances? Of course the problem is that few romances on VL last that long for them to extend from one writer to the next.
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Post by ivaniv on Sept 24, 2008 12:39:50 GMT -5
OK, have your wake if you have to, I'll wait with my worries till I see it turn to shit.
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Post by lolaruns on Sept 24, 2008 13:00:49 GMT -5
OK, have your wake if you have to, I'll wait with my worries till I see it turn to shit. I understand. But IMO the time to complain is now before bad things have happened. If we only complain once the bad things actually hit the screen then it's pretty much too late to achieve anything.
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Post by psionycx on Sept 24, 2008 14:04:50 GMT -5
Not being negative. Just saying that it's possible that this is the end of their primary storyline. It was very neat closure after all, and we are transitioning to a new writing lead. That could take us anywhere from here.
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Post by lolaruns on Sept 24, 2008 14:22:35 GMT -5
Not being negative. Just saying that it's possible that this is the end of their primary storyline. It was very neat closure after all, and we are transitioning to a new writing lead. That could take us anywhere from here. It's still saddening because it again goes back to the idea that gay couples have no story and purpose beyond coming out and dealing with gay issues like homophobia. It might not be what the writers intended (and they have done differently, like some of the Carla storylines, or the Ulli/Tom/Olli stuff). Which is weird to me to say because I normally agree that second storylines are hard to do and hard to do in a non-boring way. (or the choice is usually either boring or the characters being mean to each other in some way or form) Many of the good classic VL storylines were so good or classic because the actors left at the end of the primary storyline and the problem of a second storyline never arose. Of course many actually took longer to actually get there (like more along the lines of 2 years; compared to some others Ollian is still a relatively quick storyline).
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maya
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Post by maya on Sept 24, 2008 14:42:28 GMT -5
thank you Ivan and Nanna!!!!
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Post by amber80 on Sept 24, 2008 16:33:23 GMT -5
And why this negativism about the new writers? I'd give them a chance first. I couldn't agree more...! Just wait and see first. And a huge thanks to Nanna and Tihkon for the subtitles!!
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dutchy
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Post by dutchy on Sept 24, 2008 16:39:13 GMT -5
And why this negativism about the new writers? I'd give them a chance first. I couldn't agree more...! Just wait and see first. I agree… let’s remain positive and hope for the best! A big thank you from me too!
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Post by aussie54 on Sept 24, 2008 18:01:14 GMT -5
I've stopped reading the Spoiler Discussion thread because of all the pessimism there.
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Post by jsg03jd on Sept 24, 2008 20:25:05 GMT -5
Not being negative. Just saying that it's possible that this is the end of their primary storyline. It was very neat closure after all, and we are transitioning to a new writing lead. That could take us anywhere from here. Thankfully, the last Ollian episode was a wonderful ending to this chapter of the Ollian saga. I do hope that there's more to look forward to, but even if there isn't, this arc from November of 2007 to September 2008 was very well done, and kudos to Tom Chroust for entertaining audiences all over the world with this beautifully told love story. Having said that, even though I tend to be pessimistic (pragmatic?), unless proven otherwise, I'll believe that there are still more stories to be told for Olli and Christian. I've gotten used to getting excited for and eager to watch every new Ollian episode and I don't really want to lose that feeling quite just yet.
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Post by brownsugar on Sept 24, 2008 21:17:44 GMT -5
What a wonderful ending to one of the sweetest love stories put on TV. It was wrapped up perfectly. More than any Ollian fan could have wished for. And it really did appear like a goodbye present from Tom Chroust. So I thank him for that.
One of the best parts in the last episode for me was when Olli, who was longing for Christian's return said 'What's taking Christian so long' I just loved how Jo delivered that line and the look on his face when he said it. I also loved 'you lied to me' and the little shove. And of course that touching kiss at the end. Just so beautiful and tender.
Yesterday's closure really did feel like the end of the Christian and Olli movie. But the eternal optimist in me says this is only for a couple of months, and that by early next year January or February Ollian will be kicked back into high gear with a new fierce storyline which Jo, Thore and us fans can get addicted to again.
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Post by floatilla on Sept 24, 2008 22:25:56 GMT -5
And why this negativism about the new writers? I'd give them a chance first. ITA Ivan.....whats with indicting the new writers before we see what they can do? Besides maybe the way of writing of the previous writer was such that he could not write for 2 concurrent gay couples....just because they are new does not mean they will fuck up the pairing. Some of the writers of the best gay love stories are not gay.....so keep that in mind before burying Ollian....
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Post by aussie54 on Sept 24, 2008 23:27:01 GMT -5
I'm curious about you all seeing this as the "ending" of a beautiful love story. To my way of thinking, this is just the START of their love story, and the rest of their lives together. Now that they've got that homophobic creep off their back, and the boxing fraternity has accepted Christian, they're off and running. Just think what they can get up to now.
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Post by lolaruns on Sept 25, 2008 1:59:27 GMT -5
Just for the record, how much bad writing or lack of writing has there to be till we officially can start bitching or worrying?
That's just the thing though. Soaps are notoriously kinda not good at writing a couple in this stage. At this point all their main conflicts have been resolved. While I wouldn't like it, Christian could announce next week that he got a great offer for some boxing thing, pack up Olli and they leave together. It would feel emotionally too soon in my eyes but it wouldn't really go against the story as presented. A new writer really has to come up with a whole new story and can't just draw from the previous situation the way it is with most other storylines which were left in some kind of limbo at least (Will Sarah and Leo get together when she returns from rehab? Will Rebecca ever tell Gregor her feelings and will he return them? Will Lydia be able to move on from Sebastian and will Sebastian be able to cope? Will Judith ever see Constantin as more than a friend? All those questions have been recently ripped open by the show and more or less have to be anwered in some way. Even if the new writers were to not like the couple and tempted to give a rushed or negative answer, they still have to come up with some answer.
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Post by aussie54 on Sept 25, 2008 2:15:08 GMT -5
Well, what a challenge for the new writers! It surely should be that they roll up their sleeves, and think: "Right, let's see what we can do with these boys. They're a world-wide sensation after what Tom's done. We can do better!"
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Post by Django13 on Sept 25, 2008 2:33:35 GMT -5
Aussie54. That's the right remark. Let the writers kick off the old ones and come with a more beautiful story (is that possible?) than we have seen till now. They must know about te great attention this story gets all around the world, so they have to come up with a continuing story about our boys!! Verbotene Liebe will not be the same if they don't! So keep our tumbs up and just stand by with Jo und Thore!
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Post by lolaruns on Sept 25, 2008 2:55:21 GMT -5
Well, what a challenge for the new writers! It surely should be that they roll up their sleeves, and think: "Right, let's see what we can do with these boys. They're a world-wide sensation after what Tom's done. We can do better!" Well, let's hope that they see it like that (personally, I tend to keep flashing back to the "Yeah, we don't get it" type answers AfterElton got when they asked various SciFi creators whether they planned to include any gay stories). I think right now it's a toss up where it can really go either way (after all new writers also ruined the excellent DeRo beginning story and similarly Chroust also just didn't "see" the magic of SuCa that was there for a lot of people). Not to mention that many creators seem to have the habit that they would much rather put their own stamp on things and create their own supercouple rather than continue somebody else's. My worry is that storylinewise there is no external need for the writers to follow up on Ollian in a major may. Even under Chroust they have always played as a nice side story. Not like for example a huge signature couple like Sarah and Leo that more or less demands some kind of resolution just for structural reasons. Spoiler and personally, the complete lack of aftermath ( Ollian seem to have stories but not necessarily with each other), plus the lame writing for Olli's exit doesn't really leave me hopeful that the new writers genuinely look at Ollian as "OMG, this is so great, so touching, so popular, we'll do great things with them". If they truly saw Ollian like that, why not come up with either a truly novel and interesting way to send Olli off or come up with something nice (Olli goes to rehab, Olli goes to see uncle Lars and Christian gives him a romantic sendoff) rather than going back to a really tired clichee and conflict? One that comes out of two days of build up? Doesn't really spell out real care to me.
If their plan and priority was to seriously make Ollian better than before where are the "Christian is nervous because it is Olli's first day out of the hospital" spoilers, the "Olli and Christian are overjoyed that Olli is out" preview pic, the "Christian isn't sure whether Olli is physically in shape for sex yet. Olli assures him that he is and they do it" plot point? Heck at this time we don't even know if they had any sex since the before the fight. Back then Olli was complaining that he hadn't gotten any in ages, then he got gaybashed, now he is injured again and the next time the subject comes up it is again Olli complaining about lack of intimacy with Christian. Again, not that I think that they should have shoehorned a sex scene in. All those times there usually were good reasons for why a love scene wouldn't have made much sense. But I can't shake the feeling that if Ollian were truly oh so valued as a couple there would be more attention to detail.
Personally, I AM holding my breath and waiting to see if there are any of the infamous "hidden" scenes that show up in the episodes but not in the spoilers. But I am pretty close to ruling out the "They want to emphasize on Ollian and make them bigger and better than ever" option. Which doesn't have to mean a bad thing or spell out "active dislike", but might mean anything from "continuing as before" to "polite attention" to "benevolent indifference".
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dutchy
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Post by dutchy on Sept 25, 2008 5:43:05 GMT -5
I've stopped reading the Spoiler Discussion thread because of all the pessimism there. I’m sorry to hear that, Aussie54! I can see how some of the discussions in which people speculate about the future may get you down, but it’s not all negativity… there are still some positively-spirited and hopeful people left, among whom moi (although I sometimes get blue too but then I just think about it for a while, put things into perspective and I’m back to my usual positive self ! Besides, it’s all just speculation… no one here knows what the future is going to bring for C&O and that’s a good thing too! I think…
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Post by ivaniv on Sept 25, 2008 5:57:24 GMT -5
Well, tbh, I think that even the original head writers would have problems to follow this story with something as exciting. The status quo was established, they are together, they love each other and there are no problems in a relationship for the time being. As TC said (and me too ), they can bring more external problems that bring them closer together or something that would threaten their relationship. Which would be a bit too soon, if you ask me. I'd be interested to see more of Olli this time, because so far it was about Christian and Olli was the supportive one.
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I ♥ Blaine
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....new kid. You'll fit right in!
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Post by I ♥ Blaine on Sept 25, 2008 6:13:10 GMT -5
I hope this isn't the end! If they wanted to nspice things up. they could bring in a crush for Christian or something. But they probably wont because I still think they are keeping him ope for dating a woman again.
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Post by lolaruns on Sept 25, 2008 6:22:12 GMT -5
Which is exactly the thing that made me nervous in the first place. Coming up with a *good* storyline would already be hard for somebody who really cares about the couple, really worked on their characterisation. So, now we have to rely on somebody who doesn't have that kind of background and emotional connection to the couple to do the job.
Sure I guess it's possible that the new writer bring new impulses. But it's just as possible that he'll be clueless. They could get a storyline, but a really dumb one (throw in a girl! Yay! Have Christian question his sexuality! Yay! Have Olli cheat! Yay!) or not get much in general.
Guess all we can do is keep on hoping.
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Post by mona on Sept 25, 2008 6:48:37 GMT -5
I think every couple or story is a little uncertain now not just Ollian. They're main problem the homophobia and the coming out is over but now they can get all the normal "shit" VL likes. So maybe this really is the beginning They had to stick together for the past months and now they can be a regular couple without a threat. They can fight about forgetting the "Feuerzangenbowle" again or whatever.
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dutchy
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Post by dutchy on Sept 25, 2008 7:51:05 GMT -5
I like your thoughts on this Ivan. As fond as I am of Christian I have come to really be fond of Olli as well. There can be all kinds of conflicts and not necessarily love conflicts. Olli came close to death. This has to be an eye opener for him, for sure. A storyline along Olli's new revelation for life would be good. Perhaps he could take stock of his life in light of his "near death experience" and finally realize it's time he think about himself more, set goals and accomplish something meaningful. This could take him almost anywhere and could create challenges for him and Christian without necessarily breaking them up. I like the sound of this! Something tells me that I’d really, really like your take on C&O’s relationship! Well, you’re the one who knows people in high places!!
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