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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2009 15:57:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the vid Joe!
Zam is right where the hell did Christian go?
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Post by lolaruns on May 14, 2009 16:11:15 GMT -5
Personally, I'm dying for you to get to the last part. Mostly because I'm dying to talk to somebody about it.
Generally I think Tom can be a very whiny passive aggressive bitca. And always so fast with the tears! That said, I do get why he might be insecure in his relationship with Ulli and how that might cause him to ask more of Ulli than might be normal. (because he is worried Ulli might go back to being a straightboi)
It's quite a feat in a way, to be that bossy and demanding and at the same time so whiny and tearful.
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Zam
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Post by Zam on May 14, 2009 16:27:12 GMT -5
Personally, I'm dying for you to get to the last part. Mostly because I'm dying to talk to somebody about it. Generally I think Tom can be a very whiny passive aggressive bitca. And always so fast with the tears! That said, I do get why he might be insecure in his relationship with Ulli and how that might cause him to ask more of Ulli than might be normal. (because he is worried Ulli might go back to being a straightboi) It's quite a feat in a way, to be that bossy and demanding and at the same time so whiny and tearful. No wonder Olli dumped his ass!
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Zam
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Post by Zam on May 14, 2009 17:46:19 GMT -5
Thanks for number 33 Joe! Glad to see Tom finally getting his priorities straight and getting over himself.
Anybody know if that was Christian with Millie?
LOL @ the billboard.
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on May 14, 2009 22:19:59 GMT -5
Yes Zam, that was Christian...I too wondered what happened to him between when we last saw him and now. He seems like a cute character. My judgment of characters shouldn't be trusted though, cuz I seem to recall saying that I thought Jens was sweet, when he was introduced. And I COMPLETELY agree with everything Lola said about Tom. It's hard for me to like him. He gets on my nerves. Ewww, and when he dated Olli...ugh! Their relationship just seemed so unballanced...yuck! I really don't like all the crying/whining, Tom and even Ulli seem to do. What babies! Thanks, TGL. It's so strange to finally know all of what they're saying, after watching the un-subbed eps, like 7 months ago.
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Zam
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Post by Zam on May 15, 2009 0:48:23 GMT -5
And I COMPLETELY agree with everything Lola said about Tom. It's hard for me to like him. He gets on my nerves. Ewww, and when he dated Olli...ugh! Their relationship just seemed so unballanced...yuck! I really don't like all the crying/whining, Tom and even Ulli seem to do. What babies! Part of me thinks the Tom/Ulli story was better without the English subs. (no offense Joe!) Tom came off better in foreign language. LOL.
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on May 15, 2009 1:14:38 GMT -5
See, Zam? Now u can re-read Liz's Classes with a new perspective on Tom's...how do u say... doucheyness...I mean, gulp...I didn't mean that...ugh...Tom is just an acquired taste, I guess. Sorry, TGL...you will hear no more bitching from me, starting now...only praise for doing such a wonderful subbing job!
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Post by lolaruns on May 15, 2009 1:27:28 GMT -5
But that's the problem, Tom is way too much of a self-centered weakling that he would ever be a believable villain to me. He would sooner sit home and throw himself a pity party rather than go out and invest time in doing evil. He's just not that organized.
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on May 15, 2009 1:35:21 GMT -5
Yeah...I agree that he WAS these things, but when Liz had Olli ask Tom, "What happened to you?" It had me thinking that some crazy shit went down, that made something in Tom snap, resulting in him being a crazy dude. I guess we'll find out if Liz will elaborate on Tom's recent past. I hope so, cuz he does need to be explained. Who knew Tom had layers?
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Post by sweetsheep on May 15, 2009 4:47:33 GMT -5
Who is Liz?
For me Tom wasn't such a awful guy - to be honest I liked him. He surely wasn't a easy character, but he was good-hearted.
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Nitty
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Post by Nitty on May 15, 2009 8:21:52 GMT -5
Sorry, Sweetsheep. Liz is a fellow writer of Ollian fanfic. I guess the conversation went a little off track. Everyone please forgive me and have a good one!
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2009 17:22:34 GMT -5
It is hard to see Tom as he was back then after you have read Liz's stories, now he just seems crazy, before he was a whiny baby, but now he is crazy.
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Post by lolaruns on May 15, 2009 17:43:03 GMT -5
See that's why I really dislike it when people turn characters into one note, potentially out of character villains. That way it almost seems like the characters are robbed of their identity (and people are robbed of the chance of watching them in an unbiased way) and though the story seems dated by now I think back then it was quite a huge step and many people loved it and it affected them personally.
I actually think it's great that a character like Tom can have even such obvious personal flaws (like being petty) and it's just part of his soap character. It doesn't make him a villain/bad person, it just makes him a normal person. Not some hugely abstract perfect saintly hero. Just various people with various flaws interacting.
I also think that some of the flaws probably are because back then people weren't as forward thinking then and still more married in their heads to the gay clichees. So as a result even if Tom and Ulli were probably a huge leap forward for their time (simply because of their story being portrayed in a straight up romantic style, including elaborate sex scene) by today's standards I think they were both written and acted slightly more fey and teary and melo-emotional than we are used to.
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kes
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Post by kes on May 15, 2009 20:38:10 GMT -5
:)I understand your point here, Lola. For people who love a character, the drastic changes we can make in fiction can be a problem. However (you probably can guess what I would say here) I love the fact that fan fiction allows us the opportunity to stretch at the edges of characters -- to take certain aspects we notice (like Sebastian's love for peanuts) and work with that. Liz's stories are wonderful because they create a drama for Olli and Chris, and I don't think they turn Tom into a one-note villian. In fact, Olli wonders about him -- what changed him, etc. -- a few times, and we witness the change. He starts much more mundane than he is now . . . Anyway, I'll get off this board. I don't think I will change your mind on this, nor do I think anyone can change mine. But I do respect your view (which most people share
(By the way, I make sure to identify my fan-fic as my own creation, so people understand that I have this philosophy before I write. It's a kind of AU -- perhaps Alternative Fan Fic.
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Post by lolaruns on May 16, 2009 1:28:50 GMT -5
Like I said in the discussion on this, to me the difference if whether you do it out of love or not. If you change a character a lot with love for the character then any change is appealing (such as creating a deep mulitfaceted appealing story for even a villain, you can write even a villain with obvious affection). If it is done without love and affection for the character (or even worse, potentially out of a position of ignorance) then it's not appealing, especially if a character who is potentially loved by other is sort of "thrown into the fire" just to prop up others. It's just not an appealing situation to my eyes and nothing I could ever read even if I do not like the character myself personally. I really wish people would in that situation just create their own original characters. That said, I read very little fanfiction these days so I don't think my opinion on this really matters. But characters being with into the villain situation and being bashed has always been a pet peeve of mine in any fandom, even when it's characters who are universally hated (like Lana in the Smallville fandom). It just feels cheap to me. And with Tom (as opposed to like Lydia or Stella whom people actually have seen)I think it almost seems like people just jump quickly to the "evil" position just out of a position of ignorance just because he is a person Olli used to be with. It's one thing if people see Tom and decide they don't like him (and I agree with that/even I don't like particularly) or just jump to this without knowing anything/just hating him based on what they were told as opposed to on his own dis-merits. Like I said, to me it's a fundamental difference whether you do it out of love and affection and interest for a character (like you with Tanja, you fondness for her shines through) or out of hate, indifference or lack of information. To me the beauty of fanfiction should be that it can ring true, but it can also ring really false not because you changed something, but because you changed something that just really has the wrong tone. And to me using any part of a story (especially when it is an alive part of a story) just to prop up something else always feels weak to me. It's something I constantly complain about when I watch anything and I consider it just as much weak writing as I consider it when VL itself does it (just like the Axel sections of the Ollian story were some of the weakest from a writing/setup POV because Axel very obviously was never more than a prop with little identity and motivation except to set up Ollian; it was just a very unimpressive writing slide of hands; same with Rebecca being a very lackluster prop to GreLu;). It's about the magician letting their strings show when all should feel seemless. (for the record I naturally do no read Liz's story so I'm commenting on these kind of action in the theoretical, since she is a good writer it's very possible that she didn't do any of these things) But I think the exact same discussion was already had in the fanfic topic so we maybe we should just stop just here. I do wish more people would watch these clips especially if they read that story so they can make up their own mind about whether it fits. Though the situation makes me wonder if Ollian ever broke up and had another pairing, chances are it would probably be the same that people who would come in at that point would probably retroactively write Olli or Christian as OOC villains to prop up their couple as well. (where one could probably count oneself lucky if they just wrote Chrisitan like a wifebeater and Olli as a vain queen instead of the other way around or going even more outlandish) Anyway to get back on the actual subject, despite this prolonged sort of defense of Tom's honor, I personally go through hardly a clip where I don't roll my eyes at Tom and think of him as an annoying twat (thank God I don't actually like Ulli all that much so I think in a way they and their personalities are actually quite well suited; they certainly seem to have similar styles of overprocessing and pouting easily). It's not so much that Tom is a bad or a good person, it just seems like he is a person stuck in a particular situation (in love with Ulli, first onesided then with all the problems that surround it) while at the same time very limited by with reactions. I definitely prefer the storytelling style of Ollian in general and how they worked out their separate characters, though I have to admit that sometimes the Tulli style can get its own flow. (the billboard announcing their love will always crack me up because Chroust ripped himself off there again by having Sebastian doing the same for Lydia. Of course Lydia thought it was supercharming while Tom didn't like it) BTW TGL are you raspberryman?
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Post by sweetsheep on May 16, 2009 3:02:14 GMT -5
So this was more about the fan-fic-Tom? You are confusing me. ;D But, I have to admit I don't read those storys, that's why I didn't get it.
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Post by lolaruns on May 16, 2009 3:22:13 GMT -5
Yes, just fanfic Tom. So to get back on the subject of real!Tom, I'm still peeved of the kind of love scenes they could do back then, that they don't do them like that anymore.
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Zam
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Post by Zam on May 16, 2009 5:24:04 GMT -5
After I had last posted in this thread about Tom in these vids, I thought more about the whole Tom/Ulli story. I think Lola pretty much covered this in a post on this same page. Anyway... the story took place nine years ago. Soap production was different (acting/writing/filming) and naturally we're going to look at it as quaint/awkward/dated/unbearable/nostalgic, etc.
Times have changed--thankfully. Soap acting is generally better. Same with the writing. We also have more gay couples with whom we can compare Tom & Ulli. I would put them on par with Nuke (to a degree) if only because of the silly melodrama, and Tom's reactions to Ulli being based on which way the wind happens to be blowing.
But we have to remember that we're looking at something that happened NINE years ago. Anybody remember what bad music we were listing to back then? Or the bad TV that was on?
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Post by Torrid German Love on May 16, 2009 5:56:41 GMT -5
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Post by Torrid German Love on May 16, 2009 6:11:51 GMT -5
Lolaruns, thanks for mentioning it here. I've just sent a message to raspberryman stating that I don't mind his using my video, but that I'd appreciate his mentioning the source of the video.
I don't mind any comments about Tulli (good or bad); everyone's entitled to his opinion.
I'm not a fan of Tulli. I just subtitle it as there are some people who'd like to know what's going on.
I'll upload the next video later on today (16/May/09).
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Post by lolaruns on May 16, 2009 7:21:48 GMT -5
Thank you for doing it. I think good or bad, it's still an important part of history/was a big step back in the day.
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Zam
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Post by Zam on May 16, 2009 13:31:49 GMT -5
Naturally Joe, I'm sure we all applaud your hard work with the subs, and I agree with Lola that it's good to get a peek into the past and learn some context about the history of the show and a couple of the characters.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2009 16:26:37 GMT -5
Joe, thanks for doing the videos, I like knowing what has come before I just never liked Tom. I hope you tube stops being dumb soon I am looking forward to the nest parts.
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kes
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Post by kes on May 16, 2009 23:04:53 GMT -5
Like I said in the discussion on this, to me the difference if whether you do it out of love or not. If you change a character a lot with love for the character then any change is appealing (such as creating a deep mulitfaceted appealing story for even a villain, you can write even a villain with obvious affection). If it is done without love and affection for the character (or even worse, potentially out of a position of ignorance) then it's not appealing, especially if a character who is potentially loved by other is sort of "thrown into the fire" just to prop up others. It's just not an appealing situation to my eyes and nothing I could ever read even if I do not like the character myself personally. I really wish people would in that situation just create their own original characters. Actually, as generally happens when I discuss issues with you, you end up persuading me -- and you are so kind, too. What you have to say about "character propping" is valuable. I'd love to be able to repost it on the fan-fic forum. Suffice it to say, you had me taking notes. (Your warning about future storylines involving Olli and/or Christian as nemesis is chilling to those of us who love these characters. ) I like your suggestion: that we examine the characters we are writing about. If I’m going to love Tanja (and I do, in a demented way), I’d better at least watch her in action and know what she does to Clarissa and Charlie and Sarah and a few others. Then I can choose to work with her, or not – and my changes to her character should be thoughtful and conscious, with warnings if I’m going to go way off, as I generally do. To get back to this thread: As for Tom and Ulli: I will take your advice and watch them more. I wonder if they will fit my current concept? I’ve seen a few, but not the entire series . . . I've had the same sense of Tom, but perhaps I am not fair, because I don't find him attractive either. That (unfortunately) can influence us. So I should give him another chance. (If anyone here loves fan-fic, Liz’s stories are wonderful, albeit with a certain view of certain characters.)
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2009 23:21:19 GMT -5
I am sad that You Tube is being annoying I was looking forward to the next part.
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