|
Post by GayTime on Oct 8, 2008 14:50:46 GMT -5
I'm trying to find out which show you've seen before to come to that disappointment?
From the get go it has always been clear to me that Kitty would be the focal point of the show. The somewhat estranged Kitty returning to her family and staying after her father died- that was the whole set up of the show from the pilot onwards. It was actually what originally but me OFF B&S, because I figured I couldn't suffer through a show focusing on anyone portrayed by Calista Flockheart. Fortunately, she and the writing have proven me wrong.
UNFORTUNATELY, I guess you will find that ABC has to look at the bigger picture here. Of the 12-13 million weekly viewers, I guess a larger percentage is interested in seeing Kitty and Robert's relationship than Kevin and Scotty.
I, for one, love (or love to hate) all the characters on the show. To me, B&S's true achievement is that FINALLY we didn't get an attractive gay men in his 30's living in Los Angeles struggling with having to come out to his family, finally we got a show where this character was allowed to have a sexuality and wasn't just 'the gay brother' who would crack out the occasional semi- funny one liner.
And I think that Kitty officiated Kevin and Scotty's domestic partnership (and I'd like to see a follow up on that now marriage is legal in California...) kind of made the point of the whole show: No matter what our differences, no matter what our ideologies - family is always stronger.
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 8, 2008 15:06:36 GMT -5
In Season 1 there was a better balance with the rest of the cast. Kitty was certainly prominent, but she didn't own the whole show. Things started to go downhill though in Season 2. If this were Dynasty then Robert and Kitty are Blake and Krystle - and then some!
The point of an ensemble cast is to have the other characters get meaningful attention. But that is less and less the case here. As we moved into Season 2 Kitty and Robert began to squeeze out everyone else. I am not just talking about Kevin and Scotty here either.
So far Season 3 is a bust for everyone on the show but Kitty and Robert. Worse, there is a definite lack of creativity in the storylines. In fact, they're reusing most of the same plot lines and devices. We have a repeat of the "William had an illegitimate child storyline". Last night they reused the "Walkers had a dinner party and it was a debacle" plot device. Holly is back at Ojai making a nuisance of herself, much as she did in Season 1. And of course the "Kitty wants to become a mother" thread is continuing endlessly. Maybe she should have pirated Tommy's idea and borrowed some eggs from Sarah to save time?
Plus it looks like after two seasons of managing to avoid cliche gay storylines we're about to have a "homophobia in the workplace" plot rear it's ugly head.
I'm angry and disappointed. Because it really looks like B&S is dying as we move into Season 3. It's becoming repetitive, which is bad for a show this early in it's life. They're clearly unable to manage their cast of characters well and the result is a focus on just two of them. Finally, the storylines are getting rather trite.
This does not bode well for the rest of the season. If, as some people have suggested, we can assume that the producers would want to put their good material up front so as to renew interest after a short last season, I have to wonder what's coming. Because the first and second episodes just sucked.
|
|
|
Post by GayTime on Oct 8, 2008 15:25:25 GMT -5
for me the two episodes didn't suck, but maybe i'm just looking for different things in the show than you are. a walker dinner debacle is a spectacle to behold and for all i care they can do it every single episode. my heart goes out to anyone in the world who has to SUBTITLE these fast paced everyone's talking at the same time exchanges :-)
i also don't see the homophobia in the workplace storyline as cliched... yet- foreseeable from the second it was alluded kevin could me made a partner, but i would only dare to call it cliched after i've actually seen the episodes play out. i think, from the scoops that have sipped through so far, you will be pleasantly surprised by the outcome (or maybe not, given your apparent dislike for certain characters ;-)).
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 8, 2008 15:35:45 GMT -5
Yes I know. Anything to keep the rest of the characters orbiting Robert and Kitty.
|
|
|
Post by overtherainbow on Oct 8, 2008 16:08:19 GMT -5
In Season 1 there was a better balance with the rest of the cast. Kitty was certainly prominent, but she didn't own the whole show. Things started to go downhill though in Season 2. If this were Dynasty then Robert and Kitty are Blake and Krystle - and then some! The point of an ensemble cast is to have the other characters get meaningful attention. But that is less and less the case here. As we moved into Season 2 Kitty and Robert began to squeeze out everyone else. I am not just talking about Kevin and Scotty here either. So far Season 3 is a bust for everyone on the show but Kitty and Robert. Worse, there is a definite lack of creativity in the storylines. In fact, they're reusing most of the same plot lines and devices. We have a repeat of the "William had an illegitimate child storyline". Last night they reused the "Walkers had a dinner party and it was a debacle" plot device. Holly is back at Ojai making a nuisance of herself, much as she did in Season 1. And of course the "Kitty wants to become a mother" thread is continuing endlessly. Maybe she should have pirated Tommy's idea and borrowed some eggs from Sarah to save time? Plus it looks like after two seasons of managing to avoid cliche gay storylines we're about to have a "homophobia in the workplace" plot rear it's ugly head. I'm angry and disappointed. Because it really looks like B&S is dying as we move into Season 3. It's becoming repetitive, which is bad for a show this early in it's life. They're clearly unable to manage their cast of characters well and the result is a focus on just two of them. Finally, the storylines are getting rather trite. This does not bode well for the rest of the season. If, as some people have suggested, we can assume that the producers would want to put their good material up front so as to renew interest after a short last season, I have to wonder what's coming. Because the first and second episodes just sucked. I couldn't agree more with everything you said here! I completely agree! It's what lots of people have said over at the B&S forum too... I also think the writing has gone from bad to worse, and I'm still puzzled over why this happened in just two seasons.. The plot lines are repetitive, it looks like the writers have run out of ideas... I know they have more viewers now then ever, but to what extent? I mean.. Lots of the true B&S fans who have watched this show from the start is upset, and I don't blame them! I am really annoyed with the writers too.. And certain characters (who I don't exactly like) get all the screen time, and push the other (an more exciting) characters to the background..
|
|
|
Post by GayTime on Oct 8, 2008 18:15:02 GMT -5
On any show, it's completely subjective who the 'exciting' characters are. I hear no one complaining about Saul's storyline not advancing. But then, he's not young and chances are he'll go for the silverfox rather than the highschool quarterback. ;-) I guess we just have to swallow right now that apparently arguments between Nora and Kitty and Kitty's relationship with Robert did really well with test audiences (I happen to know quite a few people, some of them gay, who watch SOLELY because Rob Lowe's on the cast- which is... sad). The point for me is: I still like the show a lot, I was always aware that this was an ensemble cast with a strong focus on Calista and as long as I find the storylines enjoyable even if they are repetitive ( 24, anyone?) I'm not partaking in nitpicking over what percentage of screentime each of them get (just imagine how the 2 fans of Julia out there must feel ... but then, she's been a dull character from day 1). Since I didn't sign a contract with ABC that forces me to watch until the bitter end, should I get upset by it, I'll do what I always do and move on to greener pastures. So far though, the grass is still plenty green where I am sitting If any character truly deserves a focus shift on her, it would be Sarah. But then, Rachel Griffiths is so brilliant that she can just sit at the table sipping on her fake red wine and still steal the scene :-),
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 8, 2008 19:13:00 GMT -5
If any character truly deserves a focus shift on her, it would be Sarah. But then, Rachel Griffiths is so brilliant that she can just sit at the table sipping on her fake red wine and still steal the scene :-), Sadly that hasn't been the case for the last two episodes, and Sarah is my favorite character after Kevin. Instead the dynamic, sassy Sarah of the last two seasons has been replaced by a body snatcher that failed to duplicate her personality. Instead she's become like a battered housewife from a Lifetime movie. All she does is bemoan her situation in life and let Holly and Tommy push her around. I want the fun Sarah back! As for Saul, I gave up on him a while ago. Unless we're seeing him at Ojai in some business-related scenario he only appears in 30 second snippets. It's genuinely possible to forget he even exists. I think Paige and Cooper get more screen time than him. He's almost neck-and-neck with Julia! Saul's problem is that he doesn't have any clear connection to Kitty. If there was something Kitty needed from him we'd be seeing more of him. But Kitty (the Sun in the Walker solar system) already has her planets. Saul is more like a comet on a wide eliptical orbit heading away from the Sun and into the darkness of deep space... I couldn't agree more with everything you said here! I completely agree! It's what lots of people have said over at the B&S forum too... I also think the writing has gone from bad to worse, and I'm still puzzled over why this happened in just two seasons.. The plot lines are repetitive, it looks like the writers have run out of ideas... I know they have more viewers now then ever, but to what extent? I mean.. Lots of the true B&S fans who have watched this show from the start is upset, and I don't blame them! I am really annoyed with the writers too.. And certain characters (who I don't exactly like) get all the screen time, and push the other (an more exciting) characters to the background.. I'm with you sister! It's sad because this was a very powerful show, but now it's going downhill. With Robert's presidential run over with I thought we'd be moving back to the other characters more. But instead they just seem to be focusing on finding more stuff to keep the focus on Kitty and Robert, who are frankly used up at this point.
|
|
|
Post by mizuryuu on Oct 9, 2008 23:06:53 GMT -5
I agree... Saul`s storyline really does seems to have played out... they really should write him out and add in some fresh characters... maybe some more people who is not related to the family??
|
|
|
Post by ivaniv on Oct 10, 2008 6:09:30 GMT -5
Dinner gone wrong, ok repetitive, but if all went smoothly, it wouldn't be Walkers. The new sibling, I like the irony of mistress getting into the same situation as wife, but I am not sure how more excitement is in this story. What put me off in S2 was all the politics. I want a bit of escapism and people I can sympathise with and politicians and their problems ain't it. Plus the actor playing Robert had private problems and it didn't help. I ended up fastforwarding through all their scenes which left me with almost nothing. Now Getty's character wasn't very sympathetic to me to start with and with the actor's private problems it got worse, and looked once again like life imitating art ;D
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 10, 2008 17:46:24 GMT -5
It's all getting repetitive. Yes, any Walker dinner party will end in chaos. But that's why I'm complaining. They've done this before. It's not novel any longer. So it just feels like they couldn't come up with anything better to build an episode around. The major change was that it was at Kitty's house instead of Nora's.
The politics in S2 were a bigger gripe for me, not least because of that "Kitty and Robert are living saints" thing they've got going on. Robert is, supposedly, a Republican. Now, in the real America, as opposed to the fictional America on Brothers & Sisters, real Republican presidential candidates don't fret about global warming or the working class. Hell, it wasn't until banks started collapsing and the stock market took a nose dive that our actual Republican presidential candidate was willing to stop pretending that our economy was fundamentally sound!
Robert comes across as more liberal than Barack Obama! Which I suppose is meant to make him seem more angelic, much the way that Kitty is nowhere near nasty enough to have ever really been successful as a conservative pundit. Ann Coulter or Laura Ingham she is not! But of course she couldn't be, because if she were a raging bitch insulting everyone in sight (as most right-wing pundits do in the real world) the audience wouldn't be able to sympathize with her character. She and Robert are very carefully designed to be sympathetic, even though they're both implausible in the extreme.
Tommy is likewise hard to relate to or sympathize with. He is, after all, an arrogant jerk. He's got the classic issues that come from being the eldest son, but not the eldest child. So he is more obsessed with being William's heir than any of his siblings and it makes him obnoxious. You kind of almost want bad things to happen to him, and his mentor Holly.
Plus this whole Ryan business is hard to get into. William died in Episode 1 of Season 1. Since then it's been made abundantly clear that he was about as moral as Hugh Heffner that he had other affairs and apparently had another child really isn't a big bombshell. While there's some humor in rubbing Holly's nose in it, it's pretty clear that it was mostly done to free up Rebecca to be with Justin, a relationship that has nowhere near as much chemistry as the writers seem to think it does.
Indeed, at this late point is there even a reason for William to remain a major plot point in the show? He's been dead for two seasons now. Everybody, including Holly, should be over him. Isn't it time to move on to new storylines? Or is it just that there are no new storylines and so we're just going to be treated to extended doses of Kitty and Robert with the same repeated plot devices brought in to make it seem like the other characters are involved?
|
|
carld2
Full Member
Posts: 2,104
|
Post by carld2 on Oct 11, 2008 21:51:08 GMT -5
Repetition doesn't bother me as much as contrivance.
The fights this season (and some last season) have been painfully contrived and they make the characters look stupid. Even worse, they are not properly resolved.
What Kitty did to her family was just nasty. She said hateful things about them in print. She used their personal pains for her own gain, and she showed just how little she cares about any of them. Yet the viewers were supposed to believe she was right and that her family were awful to even criticize her. Her homophobic, sanctimonious husband lectured the entire family and after they limped home, Nora had to admit she was wrong and apologize to Kitty for daring to ever be upset.
The whole thing made my stomach churn.
They aren't even really trying with Scotty. I think they just brought him on the show for an excuse to not feature Kevin's love life.
|
|
|
Post by overtherainbow on Oct 12, 2008 5:45:23 GMT -5
They aren't even really trying with Scotty. I think they just brought him on the show for an excuse to not feature Kevin's love life. Well.. Scotty is getting a storyline of his own this season, but knowing these writers I wouldn't be surprised if we got 4 min screen time for the whole Scotty storyline.. I'm also pretty sure Kitty and Robert will get a huge chunk of the episodes..
|
|
|
Post by overtherainbow on Oct 12, 2008 12:49:00 GMT -5
Ok, the new episode looks kinda good..
|
|
|
Post by overtherainbow on Oct 13, 2008 6:07:39 GMT -5
Ok, the clips from episode 3 isn't on youtube yet, but you can find them here: lukemacfarlane.org/media/Go to Tv clips - Brothers & Sisters - Season 3 - Episode 3 Ok.. uhm.. THREE MINUTES??? SERIOUSLY?!?!?! We ned to start a campaign, Kevin and Scotty needs, and deserves, more screen time!
|
|
|
Post by GayTime on Oct 13, 2008 12:59:48 GMT -5
Ok, the clips from episode 3 isn't on youtube yet, but you can find them here: lukemacfarlane.org/media/Go to Tv clips - Brothers & Sisters - Season 3 - Episode 3 Ok.. uhm.. THREE MINUTES??? SERIOUSLY?!?!?! We ned to start a campaign, Kevin and Scotty needs, and deserves, more screen time! Kevin's screen time was approximately 12-13 minutes. Not bad for an episode that ran 40 minutes, I would say. Add the 5 minutes Saul had and I would say the gays didn't do too shabby last night :-)
|
|
|
Post by sheepiefarm on Oct 13, 2008 16:15:01 GMT -5
I'm liking this storyline tonight. Kevin was caught between the devil and the deep blue sea tonight through no real fault of his own doing. While Scotty was understanding we all know he comes from the point where his heart and "morals" rule his thinking - regardless of what he does or doesn't achieve in his life - remember he was homeless at one pointKevin has come from a career driven upbringing and whilst he loves Scotty and is more "out" than he's ever been in his life he doesn't have the confidence in his sexuality to stand up and be counted (in the same manner as Scotty). This story is way more than just two gay boys on screen kissing every now and again - it's starting to address real issues - not just about whether two pretty boys love each other but whether their love is strong enough to withstand the pressures AND compromises that are ultimately gonna have to be made. I'm glad it's moving on from sexuality issues to real partnership issues. I also like the fact that we have Saul's story - I think it's quite a unique angle - the older guy coming out having compromised his whole life. Ron Rifkin is a great actor who (imo) can bring a great deal of sensitivity to this - without coming across as a dirty old manThe last scene where Kevin was tempted by the mens diving on tv - perfect little touch
|
|
|
Post by overtherainbow on Oct 13, 2008 17:23:55 GMT -5
Ok, the clips from episode 3 isn't on youtube yet, but you can find them here: lukemacfarlane.org/media/Go to Tv clips - Brothers & Sisters - Season 3 - Episode 3 Ok.. uhm.. THREE MINUTES??? SERIOUSLY?!?!?! We ned to start a campaign, Kevin and Scotty needs, and deserves, more screen time! Kevin's screen time was approximately 12-13 minutes. Not bad for an episode that ran 40 minutes, I would say. Add the 5 minutes Saul had and I would say the gays didn't do too shabby last night :-) Yeah, but I want more scenes with Kevin and Scotty TOGETHER! And we haven't even had a proper bed scene. Remember - even ATWT's Nuke had a semi-bed scene, jumping up and down, but whatever.. B&S still hasn't gone there with Kevin and Scotty
|
|
|
Post by sheepiefarm on Oct 13, 2008 17:40:37 GMT -5
And we haven't even had a proper bed scene. Remember - B&S still hasn't gone there with Kevin and Scotty Have we had proper bed scene with any of the other Walkers?
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 13, 2008 18:35:03 GMT -5
And we haven't even had a proper bed scene. Remember - B&S still hasn't gone there with Kevin and Scotty Have we had proper bed scene with any of the other Walkers? I guess it depends on your definition of "proper bed scene". Just off the top of my head we've seen Kitty and Robert in bed post coitus on multilple occasions, including one horrific scene where we had to watch her lay with her legs raised afterward in an attempt to conceive. We've also seen Kitty en route to bed with Warren and Robert. Moving into sofa land there was Sarah and Joe's injudiciously videotaped incident on their living room sofa (which sure spiced up Nora's birthday video). We've seen Tommy and Julia in the shower, as well as in bed performing an extremely uncomfortable-looking Tantric sex position that would have supposedly helped them conceive (had Tommy not been shooting blanks). We've seen Justin in a wide range of amorous positions with an assortment of gals. I guess it would be nice to see Kevin and Scotty pull a Sarah and Joe and just fall onto the couch in a mad rush of passion, legs up in the air as shoes get kicked off and clothes removed... Not holding my breath though. This episode was the best so far this season, although I'm not wild about the workplace homophobia thing. It seems a little derivative as far as plots go, and so far B&S had been doing admirably well in not using Kevin as a public service announcement. But I suppose it gets him on screen. Plus, the watching diving was cute. I couldn't tell if it was Matthew Mitcham or not. Saul and Sarah's departures will hopefully be a major headache for Holly and Tommy. I think that Tommy in particular has benefited a great deal from Sarah being there to both apply her skills on behalf of the business and in serving as Holly's punching bag. Maybe with her gone Tommy will find things with Holly less pleasant. I was rather disappointed by the manner of Sarah quitting however. The whole beaten, weary thing just wasn't satisfying. I would have much preferred angry and acrimonious. Sarah just isn't herself this season. Saul actually got to say some meaningful things this time and that was nice. Hopefully this isn't the end of it.
|
|
|
Post by darcolover55 on Oct 13, 2008 18:54:37 GMT -5
I'm really glad that Brothers and Sisters writers are dealing with workplace homophobia and the kinds of compromises and decisions that gay people have to make in order to succeed in the business world and others.
A lot of time writers act as if the most difficult thing about coming out is the "coming out" process or that the only bad things that happen to gay people is getting gay bashed (which happens to real people, every day all over this country and is still very important to depict).
Yes gay people have a lot more freedom and acceptance and not every gay person has to deal with heterosexist/homophobic behavior from the people around them every day.
BUT
The truth of the matter is coming out is just the first step in navigating the world as a gay man or lesbian.
It makes me sad when gay people claim that we're all just "post gay" as if there is no longer active and daily discrimination, violence, intolerance and hatred of gay folks in this country and others.
Of course we don't each wake up everyday going "Oh Woe Is Me, It Sure Is Hard To Be Gay"
And yes, it's a 1000 times easier to be gay now than is had been in the past (NO DOUBT, NO QUESTION).
I love seeing happy, lovely, sexy gay folks on tv who are fighting about and worried about things having nothing to do with being gay
BUT,
I think that shows that feature gay character have a responsibility to deal with the real issues that gay people face (even if we as actual gay folks are sick of thinking about the negative stuff)
There are so many messages out there in the world that try to convince people that there IS NO discrimination against gay people anymore and therefore there is NO NEED for protective legislation and activism.
I would think it completely unrealistic if a show featured a gay couple that NEVER faced any homophobia, you know, ever.
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 13, 2008 19:04:17 GMT -5
We had it, in Season One, with the closeted soap star. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
It's like during the late 80's and early 90's when it was virtually impossible to find a gay movie or book that wasn't about AIDS. Eventually it starts to wear you down and you just get tired of it.
So to be honest I have to say that I really don't care for this kind of storyline. It's been done to death. What's next, Saul and Nora getting attacked by anti-semitic bigots?
|
|
|
Post by ivaniv on Oct 14, 2008 5:44:48 GMT -5
I don't think we've seen any workplace homophobia yet. If it was so, Kevin wouldn't be working there anymore. Kevin's boss was just being realistic. He needed that account, other companies were competing, too, so he minimised any possible risks. He's doing business not an education of his potential clients. It's up to Kevin to decide if it's price he's willing to pay. Scotty doesn't compromise and that might be one of the reasons why he has the job he has. BTW why would Kevin go ask Kitty about her opinion on the subject honesty vs. career? Looked like another chance for more minutes to the beloved duo Oh, and there was a lot of fastforwarding again. I really only like Kevin, Scotty, Sarah and sometimes Nora.
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 14, 2008 18:52:07 GMT -5
The whole take-your-spouse-to-the-business-dinner thing was a little contrived. That's not very common in corporate culture anymore. It's really more like a relic of the 50's and 60s'. Nowadays so many people are single, even at later ages, or else divorced that it's become tactful not to drag the spouse into business matters. I haven't even met most of my own co-workers' spouses, much less the spouses of people we do business with!
So as a plot device it seemed a little weak. All the more so because Kevin goes, in person, to seek advice from Kitty of all people. Then surprise, surprise he ends up getting a political pep talk from Robert.
The last time I checked, the Walkers not only all have cell phones, but also love using them to discuss anything and everything. That's even before you factor in the weirdness of Kevin going to Kitty when he's historically been closer to Sarah and they can both commiserate about bad work situations. After last episode's book debacle I'm not sure that Kitty is the person I would go to in order to discuss this kind of problem. It might end up becoming a chapter in her next book.
|
|
|
Post by overtherainbow on Oct 22, 2008 2:22:30 GMT -5
3.05 Sneak Peek:
Another sneak peek for 3.05:
|
|
|
Post by psionycx on Oct 22, 2008 14:08:48 GMT -5
Thanks messyme!
It makes me grit my teeth how we apparently can't have Kevin and Scotty without Kitty and Robert being involved in some way. But I suppose we should at least be grateful that we're seeing Scotty at all. He's been becoming the new Julia.
|
|