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Post by lolaruns on Jul 15, 2009 15:04:31 GMT -5
I get that they were important scenes for Starla because Stella for the first time showed interest in Sophia. But I thought they were badly executed. I don't think that Anne is bad all the time, but this episode, bah, terrible. Somebody really needs to tell her to stop bopping and waving her head so much.
Stella calling Carla a wonderful person was definitely a stab in the heart kind of thing, but I see why the fans weren't bothered by it because she "redeemed" herself with the picnic. And it's not like Stella being into somebody else is exactly news. That said, from a writing POV, I think them still using the formal you and calling each other "Mrs Mann" and "Countess" is pretty hilarious.
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Post by mona on Jul 15, 2009 15:58:39 GMT -5
That said, from a writing POV, I think them still using the formal you and calling each other "Mrs Mann" and "Countess" is pretty hilarious. That's the best. After 7 months they're still using the formal you and they didn't even had to do the hetero/lesbian trouble. (If I count it right they're at the "Ollis first ILY" timeline from Chrolli). That's a long time. SPOILER If they put much effort in Starla now in the spoiler but it doesn't look like it. They don't get Stella falling in love with Carla slowly. They're having sex - that's it. Then they show them cuddling a few times and it's all about Maria/secret stuff. From the spoiler it more looks like Starla is a storypart of the big Lahnsteinstory
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Nitty
Full Member
I will eat your brains and gain your knowledge...
Posts: 2,085
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Post by Nitty on Jul 15, 2009 19:19:42 GMT -5
Oh and the blue scarf/hankerchief on Stella looked stupid It so did!
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 15, 2009 23:24:09 GMT -5
I think the Sie thing is supposed to be humorous and tongue in cheek, so I don't mind that. I don't think that it is supposed to suggest actual distance, especially since they are frequently lightly joking with each other. But yeah, other than that they don't really seem to be putting a lot of effort into Starla at all. if you look at the screentime they clocked around at unter 6 minutes. And to me the episode would really have benefited from doing another scene which shows how Stella decides to make a picnic for Carla. I also feel quite guilty then some Starla fans go on and on about the chemstry I actually thought that they had some chemistry in their date episode but lately it has just consisted of "Claudia Hiersche is well dressed with good makeup and makes cute faces". Though I'm beginning to wonder whether I tend to give AW better acting grades when she is more well dressed/combed ;D
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Post by mona on Jul 16, 2009 7:47:59 GMT -5
But Sophia is unimpressed: img43.imageshack.us/img43/6475/1507200911.jpgCH Forum She's so sweet, I wish Olli would actually care about his babygirl cousin. It was the first time she didn't yell Mami. I don't know but it seemed like she liked Anne Wis a bit more than Carla as her mother. When a kid is "uneasy" in front of the camera I always wonder if it changes with the people they shoot with. Then again they were outside and playing, that could be the reason. The bit with the bottle was so weird, I had to think what Christian and Olli would do with a kid or how they would raise him/her. But it would drink out of a bottle for sure.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 31, 2009 15:05:37 GMT -5
Well, if I ever am tempted again to complain about Ollian's storyline, I can now tell myself "Well, at least they aren't Starla" ;D
Truth to be told, I have been feeling for a while (particularly when there was no follow up at all between the drunken kiss to now) that there is no way that Starla are any competition for Ollian at all where the writers are concerned. I can't shake the impression that they maybe are still pissed that the fans "forced" them to write this story rather than accepting Starlie.
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Post by jasmineg on Jul 31, 2009 15:36:51 GMT -5
Was it really that bad? I couldn't watch today's episode, but it looks like the people in the official forum aren't impressed. Someone mentioned a screentime of about six minutes, which is the norm for the C plot and generally what Christian and Olli get these days. I can understand why the Starla fans are annoyed if they were expecting more, but on the other hand I think they should be happy they're getting Starla at all, super quick version or not. I mean, the writers could have insisted on Stella and Charlie. Just look at SaLeo and LySeb - when the writers want something, they don't care what the fans think.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 31, 2009 15:41:45 GMT -5
Six minutes? Sounds about right. Except out of this 6 minutes about three minutes were Stella supporting GreLu by assuring him that Luise loves him and talking to David about how hard things must be for the princess I can see how that might piss people off ;D That said, I think screentime is not so much the issue but that Stella looked frikking ridiculous declaring her love at Carla at this point and like that. Just totally unrealistic. SPOILER If I were a fan, I could put up with the rush job if they were at least heading for a happy ending with both of them riding off into the sunset, but the writers do a hackjob on them AND they break up and Carla leaves alone anyway? Pretty messed up.
Kinda like JuCon. As a JuCon fan, I would put up with a rush job for a happy ending. But a rush job AND a shitty ending? Ewwww.
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Post by mona on Jul 31, 2009 16:06:44 GMT -5
I think the difference also is that this is the first real thing Starla is getting. Ollian got so many awesome little steps and emotions at the beginning. It's clear that the "falling in love" phase is more intense than anything else on a soap. What would piss me off the most is that Carla didn't even seem to "care" that it was Stella. She was really crying because of her horse and Wilhelm and not because she loves Stella and can't have her. It took totally something away that 1) The Fürst was dying and they tried to build up tension over a sick horse and 2) that Stella was giving Gregor a similar hug. Maybe it's really because I'm not a Starla fan but it seems creepy when Stella is hugging her and holding her hands because they have a distance with the "Sie" and a work relationship.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 31, 2009 16:17:59 GMT -5
The Sie never bothered me. I don't think that it was ever supposed to signify real distance (besides, maybe I just have a soft sport for those old fashioned sorta historical movies, but I think a Sie can also be really passionate and sexy. "Ich verehre Sie, Lord Irgendwas"). And I think it would actually have been more creepy if Stella had comforted Carla over Carla crying about HER and fallen in love with her because of that. Now THAT would have been a creepy pityfuck. I think the fanwank point could be that it is more about Carla being able to show Stella her emotions, whether it's about Sebastian's kidnapping, her fears about her mom or her horse/Wilhelm. And that it's kinda good that she is showing Stella that rather than flirting or scheming. It wasn't really a bad moment, just one that is laughable if it is supposed to be the sole reason why Stella suddenly declares herself in love with Carla. I mean, she is worse than Judith. Even Judith showed more restraint in her instant loves.
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Post by jasmineg on Jul 31, 2009 16:19:52 GMT -5
They're still doing the "Sie" thing? Wow, okay, that is creepy. I admit, as a Starla fan I'd be annoyed too, especially considering the getting together phase is supposed to be the most important on a soap. I just think that, considering that for the longest time it looked like there wouldn't be any Starla at all, what they're getting now is better than nothing? Even if it does come across as rushed and, well, sort of shit?
SPOILER Though I agree, the very likely lack of a happy ending definitely puts a damper on the whole thing. It does feel a bit like a slap to the face that the story is not only rushed like crazy but won't even end happily. When news about Claudia Hiersche possibly leaving first got out, I honestly expected that she would get a big love story to see her out. It's surprising that her story with Stella is so poorly done.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 31, 2009 16:23:40 GMT -5
IMO, there is definitely a teasing note to the Sie in a lot of circumstances. Like during their weird date they made a point about using the Du there. And when they talked after the second kiss Stella accidentally slipped into a Du and then quickly corrected herself. Somehow I expect them to still call each other Sie or at least Frau Mann and Gräfin in certain jokey situations even after they start dating (well, if they even get that much of writing).
"That was some excellent Sex, Gräfin" "Well thank you, Ms. Mann. I aim to please" (togue firmly in cheek)
Actually this playing around with Du/Sie is one of the few things I think is halfway creative.
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Post by chango on Jul 31, 2009 16:24:18 GMT -5
I think it's pretty obvious by now they don't want to put much effort into Starla. Which is why it sucks how they're playing with their fans. Like promoting Starla as the story of the day when they know that there will be a total of two very short scenes with Starla and the rest is all David/Stella, Gregor/Stella and one rushed scene with Stella confessing her feelings for Carla to Charlie. Or placing that scene with somebody putting his or her hands over Carla's eyes and her going "Stella?" in the preview for the next episode, when it was obviously Constantin and not Stella and there was no context and reason for Carla to even think it would be her anyway. I think it's okay to tease and bait viewers if you actually intend to give them something in the end, but since TPTB are obviously not willing to try and give the fans the best Starla they could they should really stop this thing that almost borders on false advertising. It's just unfair.
Spoiler I wouldn't be surprised if Starla don't get a proper love scene on Monday/Tuesday and the preview pics were a bit misleading too. Which really makes you wonder. 'Carla' has been such an important and popular character for what? Six years? And they're obviously not willing to put much into what is most likely going to be her exit story (probably combined with something Maria related). Well, for whom are they actually going to make the effort if not for someone like her? Leonard's exit is a joke too, but most people don't mind much because he wasn't very popular, but with someone like Carla... I really don't get it.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 31, 2009 16:27:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I have been suspecting that since the scenes after Carla's return weren't very good (from a writing POV, just not very supercouple-y) and I was pretty sure about it ever since the lack of follow up on the drunk kiss. Hence, me not getting why anybody would be threatened by Starla. So far it's almost painful how much and how obviously the writers don't care at all.
Though in some cases I do wonder if maybe some more scenes were shot and they got cut because Anne Wis is a bad actress? Not that excuses the real lack of focus of the storylines. But sometimes when there are too obvious holes, like in the picnic episode, I do wonder.
That said, after today's scene with Stella confessing her feelings to Charlie I wouldn't be surprised if Charlie is gonna watch from the sidelines for Stella to exhause her newest folly only for Stella to return to Charlie's bosom once it crashes and burns.
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Post by chango on Jul 31, 2009 17:13:23 GMT -5
So far it's almost painful how much and how obviously the writers don't care at all. Yes. I guess what really makes me feel sorry for the Starla fans is how they made it appear like they did want to put some care into a number of episodes and give them something after the stable preview pics got released. I know many fans had been looking forward to those three episodes about Starla finally getting together like mad. But what they actually get after months of waiting and Starlie nonsense is an episode like today's and we can probably assume that - from a Starla perspective - Monday and Tuesday will be just as sucky and disappointing. This pattern of crushing people's hopes and trying to get them up again, when you're actually providing nothing more than the next let-down is what irks me. It's been pretty much the same with JuCon and that's only counting recent VL pairings. I really feel for everybody who has to go through this with his favorite pairing. It sucks to no end. I think as a Starla fan I would consider retreating completely to the happy world of fan fiction. Especially since there's probably not much (like an ending with Starla happily riding off into the sunset together) that could make it 'worth' to put up with all of this.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 31, 2009 17:23:32 GMT -5
*shakes fist* JuCon!!!! Damn you writers! Sorry, off topic
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 1, 2009 2:20:21 GMT -5
From my experience with spoilers a loong time ago, they were always misleading and they make you imagine your own version and reality often can't compete with that. Do you think that writers are so easily influenced by their fans? That they are forced to change the things and then they punish their fans for that? That sounds strange to me. Especially with VL, they really don't have to care about making every single fan happy and they should not do it either. They are throwing obstacles in the way of every couple, maybe Charlie is one for Carla and Stella. It was a bit too clear at the beginning - new lesbian is in town, that can only mean one thing, she's there for Carla. So they invented this little situation with Charlie. That's how I see it.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 1, 2009 2:39:12 GMT -5
Well, I think the Stella change of mind was pretty laughworthy writing, even if you don't view it from a fan satisfaction perspective, just from a regular viewer "the story should make sense" POV. For example, I don't care for Matthias and Nathalie but their story seems to be progressing in a fairly normal manner even if it does jack for me. I don't even mind that Starla get such a non-story/just a sideline story. I'm just saying that that is what seems to be happening there.
As for whether or not it was changed because of fans, well, that is what spoiler person capwell said and they have had credible info before the fact. And the writers have openly said in interviews that they have listened to fan complaints at least in some circumstances. Like they publically admitted in an interview that they wrote out Gregor's first love Max before her time because the fans weren't taking to her at all.
As to why they never seem to back off really hated couples such as Lydia and Sebastian or Sarah and Leo? Generally I think that it's a variety of reasons:
1.) They are less likely to change one of their true main, show dominating, longterm planned stories. They might be more flexible with less important/non main stories.
2.) Just because they are internet unpopular doesn't mean that they are regular people unpopular too. Even though Sarah and Leo were hated on the official boards, the hate for them wasn't even internet universal. When there was an official poll about the SaLeo wedding where one was only allowed to vote once suddenly there were two thirds people saying that Sarah and Leo deserved to be happy together. And that doesn't even cover regular people off the street who might never think of questioning their soap opera to the extent that your regular message board fan does.
3.) Teachers pet syndrome. Aka somebody takes a liking to a character or an actor and they get written for/get screentime regardless of what the audience thinks.
Basically, I don't think that the existance of hated storylines like LySeb or SaLeo proves that the writers never listen to wishes/screams of the fans. It just shows that they don't in some situations. I still think that when Schlesselmann arrived for example, his first actions read way too much like a wish catalogue of the fans for it to be a coincidence (Grebecca anihilated at breakneck pace, the hated Katja killed off, a new lesbian, Nathalie taken out of Ansgar's orbit and being given a "healthy" romance, new aristocrats being introduced, a new supercouple being introduced where they don't cheat on anybody but fight an outside force, Gregor finally getting to be the main guy in a romance; it kinda read like somebody took the most popular demands/complaints from Rosaforum and worked them down almost like a checklist). So yeah I do fully believe that they take their cues from fans at times. There will always be situations where it has its limits and where they won't budge, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't ax a truly unpopular story at least sometimes, especially one that isn't somehow connected to some grand masterplan.
IMO the way they are writing Starla really does feel vindictive to me. They are writing it so badly with so little screentime that one feels why are they even bothering? So if they are doing it, but doing it with so much unwill, isn't it logical that one thing comes to mind is that they are only doing it because they have to, not because they want to? I wasn't the biggest fan of Starlie, thought that too wasn't too believably built up and had no chemistry, but even they had a more conventional soap opera build up. Stella kisses Carla while drunk, makes it once more perfectly clear that she couldn't have any less interest in Carla, then goes off screen for about two weeks, suddenly sees Carla cry (even though they had the exact same scene several times before) and based on that scene alone (at least according to her flashback) decides to suddenly announce that she loves Carla? Could it be any more pathetic and not heartfelt? Based on this scene alone it I would feel that the writers are not serious about Starla at all. But then advertising Starla all over the place, really does feel extremely coldhearted. Would you publicly advertise Gregor and Rebecca all over the place when you always know you are going to do Gregor and Luise? Nobody would do that.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 1, 2009 2:53:44 GMT -5
I'd imagine the fan influence is more like "That's actually a good idea, we should do that" than "They are forcing us, we must obey." Is a typical VL viewer spending time on Internet forums anyway? Given a type of products they advertise before the programme, I doubt it.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 1, 2009 3:31:34 GMT -5
Well, I do think that even they have a "Well, this went over like a lead baloon". Which I think is what happened with Starlie. (or Gregor/Max. Or Fabian)
But even if they weren't forced, no excuse for writing this poor.
But to me the whole situation definitely feels very forced and listless in how it is portrayed (and it's not one of those situations where it's obvious that the actors are the ones who aren't even trying, like LySeb or SaLeo at times). Again, if the writers like it so little, why even bother? At least when I occasionally complain about Ollian writing, at least it feels like they are trying hard and failing (which also goes for other bad stories, like Judith/Fabian or Judith/David; even if it didn't work, you could still see what the writers were trying underneath). This doesn't even feel like trying.
Maybe it's not the fans, maybe it's an actress putting her foot down or whatever. But it definitely feels "off" to me. And not in the typical, "they banked on something and it didn't work" (like Grebecca for example). And it's not like Starla lacks fan support. It just lacks writer support all the way through the bank pretty much since the whole Starlie stuff started.
Sure there have been disappointing turns before, with popular couples not working out. But at least with couples like Gregor/Sarah, Judith/Constantin or Sebastian/Olivia the show never really hid that they had a pretty snowball chance in hell. Compared to that IMO, Starla was much more sold and dangled in front of the fans. There was no obvious "Well, duh, it's obvious that Starlie is the meant to be couple, it's your own fault for getting into Starla/getting your hopes up" the way it was obvious with some of those other couples. So I can't really blame the Starla for expecting more. Even if more would just be a barely passable character development. Instead Stella looks like the world's least likable shallow dumbass, if she already declares herself in love based on next to nothing. It's just not very credible. This is just as bad or actually worse than her (to me) already shallow feeling crush on Charlie. Hardly anything anybody could build a credible love story on.
Again, not really my problem. At least I can rest assured that even if Ollian's writing annoys me, at least we don't have to deal with something as poor and listless as this.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 1, 2009 4:16:59 GMT -5
Stella's latest realisation was daft, I give you that. It did not help that Stella is not the best actress either. I also found it in a bad taste that Luise's father was dying and Carla was worried about the horse, yes life goes on and all that, but still. I still don't understand why would the writers feel forced to do something they don't want to and then be vindictive about it. It's very unprofessional, to change their mind under a "pressure" and then sabotage the story by inferior writing.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 1, 2009 6:33:41 GMT -5
I still think that they killed the original Starla story and started writing Starlie from the moment on when Claudia Hiersche pretty obviously indicated in public interviews that she intends to leave VL. IMO, Starlie was the original vindictive story to get back at CH. When they could have used that time they spent on Starlie to at least do a passable love story. What was that, 4,5 months in total? You can write something passable in that time. Maybe somebody smacked a ruler on their fingers and pointed out that they can't do that and forced to go back to the original plan and now they are writing it with all the anti enthusiasm they can muster. (this also jives with Capwell's hints; for the record, in the past Capwell was the person who knew ahead of any spoilers that Stella would get her own office and that there would be a scene where Carla is supposed to get some sort of lesbian award that somebody "interesting" would take in her stead) Don't you just love behind the scenes drama that in the end mostly makes the viewers suffer with bad writing? Sure, Anne Wis being a poor actress doesn't help matters, but Stella's revelation would have been ridiculous even with a better actress. Of course it doesn't help she always plays Stella "in love" in this cheesy admiring fawning matter, rather than something that comes across like a more mature love. IMO writers will always have their pets and their anti-pets. It just sucks when it's in such an obvious manner. I do think that it does happen that writers have to write stories they are not enthusiastic for (for example, I always thought that Chroust was enthusiastic for Ollian and for the scheming storylines, but obviously he had to at least write some straight romances; He didn't write them as straight up bad as Starla is written, but to me both Grebecca and LySeb felt very by the numbers; not comparable to the heart he wrote Ollian with; Similarly, I'm sure sometimes writers have some producers mandates, like having to Brandner stories or having to continue the supercouple story from the previous regime and not being allowed to break them up; and personally, I don't really get a truckload of inspiration from the writing for Ollian either, they too seem to be a case where they probably have to include it because of the popularity; the difference is that with Starla it recently started to feel like straight up writer dislike rather than lack of inspiration or cluelessness; of course none of the other stories messed with plans they might have had for example for Starlie). Regardless of what the reasons are (aka even if all the conspiracy theory are completely off base), I think it's pretty poor to write any scene/story that badly. Even if the Starlas feel differently, but for me, as a viewer, if they can't come up with anything better they should just not have included it at all. In those kind of situation, I think a harsh deep cut (like Grebecca being over within like a week) is much preferable. That's not to say that I enjoy sitting through storylines that I hate and that the writers seem to inexplicably love (why couldn't Katja have died in a fraction of the time? Why do I have to sit through endless Brandner issues with MatNats and LySeb?). But where is the point of a story that the writers don't seem to love and that the viewers therefore can't enjoy either?
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 1, 2009 7:26:42 GMT -5
Perhaps it's not so much the pressure from the fans but the new head writer. They all probably sit down and pitch ideas what should happen over some time, but it's a head writer's call at the end. Writers then get an outline what should happen in an episode and then they break it down into scenes and write dialogs. So maybe they are not impressed with the new boss
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 1, 2009 7:34:11 GMT -5
But how realistic is that? Would a writer really dare to act that obviously against instruction? Wouldn't a headwriter who actually cares check stuff like that fire people if they pull stunts like that? To me that feels even less realistic to me.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 1, 2009 7:39:31 GMT -5
But then bowing before an opinion of a few loud people on an Internet forum, how silly is that?
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